City blocking solar install by home owner - legal?

[treadlite]

Back to the most practical aspect of this discussion. If I were buying a home and it had solar, I would search for permits associated with the job. No permits = something curious so move on.

The question was never about if permits were pullled, the issue was is about wether or not the city would allow owner builder to do the install with proper permitting. Nobody should do grid tie without the proper permit. And probably not roof mounted either. Ground mounts that do not connect to grid...city/state should mind its own business about that.

Here is what I found for Utah State Law - From what it says here 1(d) "sole owners" are exempt from being required for any licensing. I think this also goes for most states.

58-55-305 Exemptions from licensure.
(1) In addition to the exemptions from licensure in Section 58-1-307, the following persons may engage in acts or practices included within the practice of construction trades, subject to the stated circumstances and limitations, without being licensed under this chapter:
(a) an authorized representative of the United States government or an authorized employee of the state or any of its political subdivisions when working on construction work of the state or the subdivision, and when acting within the terms of the person's trust, office, or employment;
(b) a person engaged in construction or operation incidental to the construction and repair of irrigation and drainage ditches of regularly constituted irrigation districts, reclamation districts, and drainage districts or construction and repair relating to farming, dairying, agriculture, livestock or poultry raising, metal and coal mining, quarries, sand and gravel excavations, well drilling, as defined in Section 73-3-25, hauling to and from construction sites, and lumbering;
(c) public utilities operating under the rules of the Public Service Commission on work incidental to their own business;
(d) sole owners of property engaged in building:
(i) no more than one residential structure per year and no more than three residential structures per five years on their property for their own noncommercial, nonpublic use; except, a person other than the property owner or individuals described in Subsection (1)(e), who engages in building the structure must be licensed under this chapter if the person is otherwise required to be licensed under this chapter; or
(ii) structures on their property for their own noncommercial, nonpublic use which are incidental to a residential structure on the property, including sheds, carports, or detached garages;

[foo1bar]

Ground mounts that do not connect to grid...city/state should mind its own business about that.

I disagree. I believe the AHJ can and should require permits and inspection on any construction in their jurisdiction, and whether it is connected to the utility should have no bearing on that.
Permits and inspections are there to protect the owner and his neighbors. The owner may not know what's needed for something to be safe - and therefore the inspections help protect him. And even if he doesn't want the protection for himself they also are there to keep the construction from becoming a potential hazard to the neighbors (or extra expense via extra fire dept costs)

[inetdog]

One possible weasel out of the Utah law would be for the city to assert that PV installation is a very specialized activity that does not fall entirely within "... acts or practices included within the practice of construction trades,...."

[dougmielke]

City of Los Angeles has very clear and strict code requirements beyond "savvy." One can personally apply for all permits relating to the owner property. Before the primary inspection takes place, that application must be updated with a complete set of plans and drawings conforming with LA Dept. of Building and Safety and LA Fire Department. If these drawings are not submitted by a licensed contractor in the PV field, you will wait until hell freezes over for all inspections and the PTO letter. (Permission to Operate).

I like this protocol because it keeps my neighbors from being "savvy" and burning my house down along with theirs. Here in Southern California, I have already walked away from my home due to a wild fire started by SocalGas power lines. So it's potentially not just my "savvy" neighbor and my homes but potentially another 5,000+ homes in the immediate vicinity.

All good reasons to limit projects like this to people that are always current on codes and technology associated with PV systems.

[foo1bar]

If these drawings are not submitted by a licensed contractor in the PV field, you will wait until hell freezes over for all inspections and the PTO letter. (Permission to Operate).

I doubt that's true.
If it was the city of LA would basically be asking to be sued.

Now, are they just as strict (or possibly even stricter) about making sure every i is dotted and t is crossed? Probably.

I doubt they would delay DIY jobs from being inspected because there's no reason for them to.
A DIY job can be done better than a job by a licensed "professional"- it really depends on who is doing the job. (Want evidence? Look at that >50 page thread about the "professional" job where the crimps weren't done properly among other things)

[dougmielke]

Mr. foo1bar,
Simply sharing my direct, very recent experiences with the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power.

Everyone is welcome to do these projects however they see fit. Licensed or not. Permits or not. Inspected or not.
As long as you never contemplate selling the property, that's when the permits are required.

A simple search of the property records will show improvement permits and their associated inspections.
No records = zero chance to sell without major headaches.

Further, burn your own house to the ground, that's your problem.
Burn your neighbor's house because of your home's fire = a monster liability case. (insurance companies frown on what you suggest and will cover $zero.00

[foo1bar]

Everyone is welcome to do these projects however they see fit. Licensed or not. Permits or not. Inspected or not.
As long as you never contemplate selling the property, that's when the permits are required.

That may be what you think should be the way things work.
However it is not how things actually work.

If it's something minor (like a back yard shed) the AHJ is probably not going to bother trying to enforce anything.
If it's something major or potentially hazardous (ex. a septic system without permits, or a major addition to a house, or a solar system) the AHJ is more likely to do something about it.
Probably starting with a letter reminding the owner they need permits and inspections. Then maybe a court order compelling the owner. It could potentially go as far as condemning the building/property and requiring everything to be fixed before people are allowed to live there.

Further, burn your own house to the ground, that's your problem

If someone in my town burns their house to the ground it's *still* my problem.
Because I have to pay for the firefighters and their equipment through my taxes.

insurance companies frown on what you suggest and will cover $zero.00

What are you talking about?
Insurance companies have no problem covering properly permitted and inspected DIY improvements.
I have NOT suggested anything that insurance companies "frown on".
OTOH, what you are suggesting (not getting a permit until/unless you sell the property) - that I think they would frown on. It wouldn't be something I'd want to deal with an insurance company about.

[cebury]

That may be what you think should be the way things work.
However it is not how things actually work.

If it's something minor (like a back yard shed) the AHJ is probably not going to bother trying to enforce anything.

I have NOT suggested anything that insurance companies "frown on".
OTOH, what you are suggesting (not getting a permit until/unless you sell the property) - that I think they would frown on. It wouldn't be something I'd want to deal with an insurance company about.

Here is my experience, but I'm not in in LA or SD where their ahj is apparently much stricter. Where I live, a permit is required for almost every modification to your home, except for drywall repairs, window replacement that don't remove existing frames, and adding attic insulation. I didn't know this until AFTER I sold my Last house.

Get this: I submitted, in writing, a notification to the buyer of ALL modifications I mad to the home. Including adding new AC ducting intake and supply, adding electric outlets to a room and 20amp circuit to the garage, adding additional framing to the garage joists and building storage space above it, adding electrical circuit monitoring to the main panel, adding speaker wiring lots of places, and lots lots more.

On the Check list of "have you made any changes to the home that required a permit?" I left blank and said see attached.

Buyer said nothing, their bank said nothing.

Lucky me I guess.

[treadlite]

Here is the NEC 214 code that my city is trying to say that it requires a licensed contractor. No where does it say "Licensed"

NEC 2014: Solar Photovoltaic (PV) Systems -690.4 General requirements. (C) Qualified personnel. The installation of equipment and all associated wiring and interconnections shall be performed only by qualified persons.

NEC 2014: Article 100 Definitions. Qualified Person. One who has skills and knowledge related to the construction and operation of the electrical equipment and installations and has received safety training to recognize and avoid the hazards involved

Here was my response to them:

In reference to NEC 2014: Article 100 Definition, a Qualified Person is not defined as a licensed contractor. As stated in the definition, it is someone who has knowledge and has received safety training. The NFPA 70E: Standard for Electrical Safety is an industry acknowledged safety training, which will be reviewed by the owner, thus making the owner a Qualified Person.

They did not take kindly to this and also denied making any changes to city code, and that had always been there, which then I gave them the date and the meeting notes of where it did change, which then he backpedaled and just said "well its just mandatory changes for 2014 NEC code which took affect in July".

Anyway, I submitted my permit this morning and he said he will discuss it with his peers.

[SunEagle]

Here is the NEC 214 code that my city is trying to say that it requires a licensed contractor. No where does it say "Licensed"



Here was my response to them:



They did not take kindly to this and also denied making any changes to city code, and that had always been there, which then I gave them the date and the meeting notes of where it did change, which then he backpedaled and just said "well its just mandatory changes for 2014 NEC code which took affect in July".

Anyway, I submitted my permit this morning and he said he will discuss it with his peers.

It seems that if your city bases it's PV installation restrictions only on the NEC code they may have an issue enforcing their "Licensed" contractor policy.

The NEC is usually a base requirement that is used but the locals (city, county, etc.) which then can include additional restrictions above what the NEC states.

This may be true for your city but the person you talked to may not know the exact wording of the local ordinance but knew it was based on the 2014 NEC. There might another city ordinance concerning the need for a licensed contractor to perform work based on the type of installation which includes solar pv systems.

[kellyvb]

Funny, why would anyone bother to even think about doing anything solar with all this BS RED TAPE that is enforced on us. Its just not worth it IMO. I bought 4 300 watt panels to just suppliment my electrical usage and got 2 1200 Watt GT inverters only to find out here that the inverters I got are supposaly ilegal to use.

[treadlite]

I called 5 local cities that are nearby and none of them had a problem with owner builder installs. Like I said earlery, this unfortunately is a personal attack because the main building inspector has a chip on his shoulder because from day one he said I wasn't allowed and I had to have a contractor. Every step of the way he tries to stop progress including getting the state involved and every time he has had to let me continue my work.

Any other city in the area I would not have this issue.

Yes you have to use UL listed components. you cannot buy a cheap Chinese inverter for grid-tie.

[jflorey2]

Funny, why would anyone bother to even think about doing anything solar with all this BS RED TAPE that is enforced on us. Its just not worth it IMO.

Then don't do it. Your choice.

[J.P.M.]

Funny, why would anyone bother to even think about doing anything solar with all this BS RED TAPE that is enforced on us. Its just not worth it IMO. I bought 4 300 watt panels to just suppliment my electrical usage and got 2 1200 Watt GT inverters only to find out here that the inverters I got are supposaly ilegal to use.

Well, for one thing, think about the folks who buy used homes - maybe even you. Would you buy a home with lots of work that was done with no oversight - or 2 X1,200 Watt inverters that are not legal for what may well be very valid reasons you may be clueless about ? Sounds like you already did that.

Building codes can be a PITA, but along with that, they do serve the public good. All you need to do is follow the rules.

[SunEagle]

Funny, why would anyone bother to even think about doing anything solar with all this BS RED TAPE that is enforced on us. Its just not worth it IMO. I bought 4 300 watt panels to just suppliment my electrical usage and got 2 1200 Watt GT inverters only to find out here that the inverters I got are supposaly ilegal to use.

Some people learn the hard way. If you do live in the US all plug in grid tie inverters are not legal and worse most are not safe. On top of that if you use one of them and do not have a contract with your POCO to sell power to them more than likely your electric meter won't be able to tell the difference between what comes in from the POCO or what goes out. It is all the same and you will end up being charged for the power you send them. No savings there.