Build Design On My First Off Grid System 13KwH

[Sunking]

Vinny don't be a fool. You are not factoring in replacing the batteries every 5 years of $15,000, maintenance, replacenments, and your huge loss in ROI. I can invest $60,00 today, it will pay my utility bills for 20 years, and at the end of 20 years cash it it out for a couple hundred thousand and go on permanent vacation. You will have nothing but huge losses.

[vinniethePVtech]

Vinny don't be a fool. You are not factoring in replacing the batteries every 5 years of $15,000, maintenance, replacenments, and your huge loss in ROI

I thought you were recommending the surrette batteries because of the 10 year warranty? I was reading up on owners of those batteries. If the D.O.D charging at 70% of capacity roughly 15years. If I take it easy on the batteries. shut down the solar during the winter durig heavy load, less charging I could probably get the batteries to last 18 years, as well if I shut down the solar and tarp off during the winter I could probably squeeze 5 more years out of the life of the solar.

Like you are saying though this is all maintenance.

I have considered grid tied with a back up generator. My problem with grid tied, and this has happened. When the california rolling black outs come through a grid tied system means nothing. With a generator of 1200watts interconnected to the main panel the inverter can atleast stay active to make power for the home.

[Naptown]

I can purchase all components with tax included (I will round up) $63,000. Now if I was to use high efficiency panels such as sunpower, or schott which are around $1000 per panel pre tax I'm looking at upwards cost of $92,000 system cost assumed. Cost of suntech PV $490 per panel after tax. sunpower or schott $1100 per panel after tax per panel.

.

That paragraph right there convinces me that you are not really a solar contractor. You may be a contractor in the solar industry but you are not a player. Sounds to me like you are a contractor who buys from someplace like wholesale solar but more of a retail customer than a wholesale one. The prices you are quoting are retail.
The pricing you are quoting are higher than even the Sanyo Bifacial modules which are the most expensive on the market.

[vinniethePVtech]

That paragraph right there convinces me that you are not really a solar contractor. You may be a contractor in the solar industry but you are not a player. Sounds to me like you are a contractor who buys from someplace like wholesale solar but more of a retail customer than a wholesale one. The prices you are quoting are retail.
.

I have to list retail. Then tax. Then contractor discount is 10% off. A contrator would be stupid to estimate at discounted quote, it becomes normal to estimate at retail price. I do not get dealer prices at 30% off, I need a state dealers/sales license to do that, and an audit every year, I prefer not to get audited every year.Until the economy gets betterth is the way to do it. The most I get is 10% off. Very common in the construction industry.
I never said I was a big player, how ever I do play.

Class B contrcator is a general B contractor
C46 is solar
C10 is electrical

Right now I'm studying NABCEP and C10.
My business is a General B

[Sunking]

I thought you were recommending the surrette batteries because of the 10 year warranty? I was reading up on owners of those batteries. If the D.O.D charging at 70% of capacity roughly 15years.

Vinny if you discharge 70% DOD they will not last but a year or two if even that long. If you only DOD 10 to 20% daily then it is POSSIBLE to get 7 to 10 years out of them at best.

Guy honestly you need to stop and think things through or you are heading for disaster. Right now you do not even know the right questions to ask or understand the answers you are getting.

Listen to Mike and another user named 894Tom.

Mike has about $80,000 tied up in his system which I think is only about 5 to 6 years into it that only generates about 5 to 7 Kwh per day in Southern California. He is an aerospace engineer, built the system himself. So what makes you think you can build a system with 3 times the capacity at 1/4th the cost per Kwh.

I am an EE that has built Stand Alone System for about 10 years on commercial properties with over 33 years of electrical design experience. Granted solar is a very small portion of my business, less than 5% but I have over 150 battery systems under my belt, and I am telling you are heading for big trouble.

If you are really in California, use your neighbors money and build a grid tied system.

OK that is my 2-cents and done with this thread.

Good Luck

[vinniethePVtech]

Vinny if you discharge 70% DOD they will not last but a year or two if even that long. If you only DOD 10 to 20% daily then it is POSSIBLE to get 7 to 10 years out of them at best.

I think you and I meant the same thing, apparently I worded it wrong.

Mike has about $80,000 tied up in his system which I think is only about 5 to 6 years into it that only generates about 5 to 7 Kwh per day in Southern California. He is an aerospace engineer, built the system himself. So what makes you think you can build a system with 3 times the capacity at 1/4th the cost per Kwh.

CHINESE PV?

[Bala]

you can not compare living on a stand alone system with the grid. With the grid ( I will stand corrected here) you have approx 10 to 15 KVA of power avail at any time,( unless the grid is down). I live on stand alone, I have a reasonable size system, I have about 3 kva available sometimes and for varying length of time, when its nice and sunny and the batteries are charged. but I dont have 3kva continuous, in fact I probably never even use a 3kva surge,. At night I dont have it avail, or when its cloudy, not if i want my batteries to last. So when you want to use the washing machine you do it during the day when its sunny or at night on the
genset. Think about when you use your 13 kwh a day and if you are not at home all day each day to use the sun you will need most of that 13kwh at night. you
just can not compare stand alone to grid. Stand alone is a life style and a pain to live with.

[Sunking]

you can not compare living on a stand alone system with the grid. With the grid ( I will stand corrected here) you have approx 10 to 15 KVA of power avail at any time,( unless the grid is down).

Actually quite a bit more than that. A 200 amp service is capable of 48 Kva. But your point is valid.

[Mike90250]

Originally Posted by Sunking
Mike has about $80,000 tied up in his system which I think is only about 5 to 6 years into it that only generates about 5 to 7 Kwh per day in Southern California. He is an aerospace engineer, built the system himself. So what makes you think you can build a system with 3 times the capacity at 1/4th the cost per Kwh.

CHINESE PV?

No, Evergreen. I was really trying to belive in America....

I've designed and installed 2 systems:
A) Grid Tie, So. Calif. 4.5KW on west facing roof. about $30K
FinalRoof.JPG Sold house, prepareing to move to :
B) Off-Grid No. Calif 3.0KW on pole mount about $80K (about what installing power lines would have cost me, and then monthly bills forever)
27066_1247848595122_1196643274_30605016_6045984_n.jpg

It is going to be much more difficult to manage the off-grid, if any of several things go wrong, I have no power, till I crank up the genset. (and pay for fuel)

[vinniethePVtech]

No, Evergreen. I was really trying to belive in America....

I want to believe in America but I can't it's wallstreet corporate driven for profits. Even our American pv companies outsource tempered glass panels from another country. Then in the states all that is left is installing the aluminum framing.so American companies outsource the jobs anyway to other countries and CEO's and wall street are left for profits. I wish it was like the Reagan era where built in America mattered. Ever since NAFTA American products and buy American isn't American any more.

What do you find more effective for a fuel source? Propane, unleaded or diesel? I'm serious about purchasing the generac natural gas/propane generator.

[russ]

I want to believe in America but I can't it's wallstreet corporate driven for profits. Even our American pv companies outsource tempered glass panels from another country. Then in the states all that is left is installing the aluminum framing.so American companies outsource the jobs anyway to other countries and CEO's and wall street are left for profits. I wish it was like the Reagan era where built in America mattered. Ever since NAFTA American products and buy American isn't American any more.

What do you find more effective for a fuel source? Propane, unleaded or diesel? I'm serious about purchasing the generac natural gas/propane generator.

Quit whining or go sit in some park freezing your backside off with the fool fleabaggers if you are so concerned. I think the protestors are all stupid or worse - beggars that are too lazy to work for what they want!

Natural gas is by far the cheapest and easiest source for a generator.

[russ]

Propane cost is a function of the chemical industry as well as the fuel market. The price can swing more than other fuels.

Diesel or petrol - depends on cost per gallon only, Diesel having something like 20% more fuel value per unit than petrol.

[Mike90250]

.......What do you find more effective for a fuel source? Propane, unleaded or diesel? I'm serious about purchasing the generac natural gas/propane generator.

Natural gas is cheap and clean. Also comes out of a pipe you have no control over.

Propane comes from a tank of whatever size you chose. 5 gal up to 1,000. Have to pay someone to come and fill it for you.

Diesel comes from a refinery or your own bio plant. Needs a specialized engine to run pure propane or NG. Can "fumagate" the intake with propane or natural gas to about 80%, 20% diesel needed to ignite.

Propane is my most likely survial choice. It will keep in the tank till it rusts through.

[solarfreak]

inappropriate content removed.

[Sunking]

• I have been off grid for 22 years...
• I have a subdivision of 6000 acres to back me up and I have build many of not most of the systems people use here.
• Mine is 15kw panel and currently 11kw inverter with a 1000ah 48ah battery with after 10 years performs like new.

PROVE IT...
I do not believe any of that, Show pictures of your system including panels, batteries with equipment details. or get lost . If your community is that large ( 10 square miles Utopia) you should also have Sat or airplane photos. All you have to do is give GPS coordinates of your utopia for all us to see on GOOGLE Earth. Bet a dollar you cannot do it.

Do you think we are fools? A 48 volt @ 1000 amp hours plant cannot even supply a days worth of power you are claiming. 10 years my butt... A C/3 charging current would fry the batteries in a weeks time.