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  • #31
    FWIW, I spent some time studying and experimenting with thermal storage systems in the late '70's/'early '80's.

    One thing I learned several times was the concept of a thermal time constant, somewhat similar in concept to charging (discharging) a capacitor through a resistance in an electrical circuit with the voltage change as f(time) analogous to the temp. change, inside to outside.

    Cut to the chase: A dwelling with a large thermal mass will change internal temp. slower than one with a smaller thermal mass. Also, a dwelling with a small total heat loss coeff. (i.e.,well insulated) will change internal temp. slower than one with a larger total heat loss coeff. The building with a large thermal mass and a low total heat loss coeff. will change temp. much slower than either of the others somewhat proportional to: (Effective Building Thermal Mass/Total Building Heat Loss).

    Using the analogy of the thermal mass to a capacitance and the (1/total heat loss) to a resistance, most stick/tract type dwellings have building time constants of the order of very approx. ~ 12-24 hrs. or less. High mass passive solar designs can have time constants of the order of several days or more. Seasonal storage dwellings have effective time constants on the order of 6 months - Store in the summer- use in winter - possible but usually impractical and not cost effective.

    A common misconception is that high mass alone equals low heat loss. Not true - in act, usually the opposite because most brick/stone/masonry is a lousy insulator, pretty much regardless of thickness, and so a high heat loss --->>> high heat loads --->>> high bills.

    Water is the most compact storage medium and is (was) the most common. Rock bins/ pebble beds are OK, but may have long term problems with mold and critters after a while. Think access to the middle of a 20 X 20 rock bin that's 8 ft. deep. Heat distribution in pebble beds can be a tricky issue as can flow rates, and as f(partical size/shape/void fraction, etc.). Also, it's difficult/impossible to add and withdraw heat from a bed simultaneously.

    On a retrofit, the most practical, common and cost effective methods to reduce a dwellings HVAC demand is to insulate the living crap out of it, and tighten it to the safest level possible from an air quality standpoint. BTW, air/air HX are a nice idea, that doesn't usually produce effective results or trouble free operation (read, lousy performance and real maint. issues, including health problems). Adding thermal mass in an effective way, in the quantity necessary to be effective beyond a feel good placebo sort of way is pretty difficult. One exception to that might be effectively insulating a brick, stone or masonry dwelling on the outside. It's a tough job with lots of details, and may involve what's called environmental trashing, but again, it's possible.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by RedDenver View Post
      a simple electric heating setup to use excess solar power is much simpler than a heat pump.
      You forget to mention that resistance heating you are calling for is maybe 25% as efficient as a heat pump.
      [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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      • #33
        Originally posted by SunEagle View Post
        Have you looked into other types of thermal banks like stone or gravel? I know that once stone is heated up it can take a while for it to cool down.
        I have friends that live nearby, in a university project house built in the 1980s. It has Passive-Solar, and it has Active-Solar, and it has a woodstove. It circulates warm air through an underground thermal-mass stone-bed.

        The retired professor of thermal-dynamics who directed the project lives next door. He did a presentation once, that I sat through, on the design features of the house and construction.

        There were Phd thesis' done on determining the type of stone, their shapes and sizes.

        It was all built so they could do direct comparisons of different heat methods, etc.

        A group of permaculture students lives in the house today.



        A 2,000 gallon tank of water is only a tiny speck as compared to the volume of sorted and sized stones needed for such a thermal-bank.
        4400w, Midnite Classic 150 charge-controller.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by organic farmer View Post
          I have friends that live nearby, in a university project house built in the 1980s. It has Passive-Solar, and it has Active-Solar, and it has a woodstove. It circulates warm air through an underground thermal-mass stone-bed.

          The retired professor of thermal-dynamics who directed the project lives next door. He did a presentation once, that I sat through, on the design features of the house and construction.

          There were Phd thesis' done on determining the type of stone, their shapes and sizes.

          It was all built so they could do direct comparisons of different heat methods, etc.

          A group of permaculture students lives in the house today.



          A 2,000 gallon tank of water is only a tiny speck as compared to the volume of sorted and sized stones needed for such a thermal-bank.
          I may know/know of the person you refer to as well as a lot of the data on pebble/rock/dry storage particulars.

          FWIW: Depending on void fraction, a rock bed/bin needs about 2.5 times the volume of water to store the same quantity of heat. The rock density is greater, but the specific heat of rock is less, and H2O has a void fraction of zero.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by russ View Post
            You forget to mention that resistance heating you are calling for is maybe 25% as efficient as a heat pump.
            Yes, the efficiency for a heat pump is much better. But for an air-source heat pump the efficiency depends strongly on the air temperature, so resistance heat will vary from 25-50% as efficient. And the heat pump may not work at the coldest air temps, whereas the resistance heat will. So depends only the efficiency and complexity the designer wants to achieve.

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            • #36
              Have you seen Bob Ramlow's high-mass solar heating system? It's easiest to deploy on a new build, rather than retrofitting. You basically do a 2' deep sand bed under the foundation, run PEX through it, and run the solar heated liquid through the pex in the sand bed. It's not as efficient as using water as the thermal mass, but due to sand's thermal characteristics, the sand will slowly release the heat through the day. I've been at his house in Wisconsin in the winter, and it was toasty warm. http://www.arthaonline.com/Word%20Fi...Today_ND07.pdf

              BTW, altE Store got its start in Maine, focusing on the off-grid Mainers. Maine is still a major region for us. A couple of us spend most of our weekends in Maine, although not as remote as organic farmer.
              Solar Queen
              altE Store

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Amy@altE View Post
                Have you seen Bob Ramlow's high-mass solar heating system? It's easiest to deploy on a new build, rather than retrofitting. You basically do a 2' deep sand bed under the foundation, run PEX through it, and run the solar heated liquid through the pex in the sand bed. It's not as efficient as using water as the thermal mass, but due to sand's thermal characteristics, the sand will slowly release the heat through the day. I've been at his house in Wisconsin in the winter, and it was toasty warm. http://www.arthaonline.com/Word%20Fi...Today_ND07.pdf

                BTW, altE Store got its start in Maine, focusing on the off-grid Mainers. Maine is still a major region for us. A couple of us spend most of our weekends in Maine, although not as remote as organic farmer.

                Thanks Amy.

                That is the type of thermal storage system I was refering too a few posts back. Although now with J.P.M. providing some data I never realized that water has better thermal transfer then stone or sand.

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