My Offgrid House & My Programable Solar BMS for any type of Lithium battery.

[inetdog]

By links to my sources are you referring to the A123 System 20Ah LiFePO4 datasheet ? If so then here is a link
http://www.raceyard.de/tl_files/News...Data-Sheet.pdf

From your first link, fine print below cycle life table:

Preliminary specifications, performance may vary depending on use conditions and application.
A123 Systems makes no warranty explicit or implied with this datasheet. Contents subject to change without notice.

[electrodacus]

From your first link, fine print below cycle life table:

Yes I will have been worried if there will have been no fine print.
It seems reasonable it is a battery and of course the condition the battery is used will have an impact.

I do have 3 types of LiFePO4 some I use extensively with the small ones used in hard condition over 10C discharge with more than 200 cycles already and no sign of capacity degradation.

[inetdog]

Yes I will have been worried if there will have been no fine print.
It seems reasonable it is a battery and of course the condition the battery is used will have an impact.

I do have 3 types of LiFePO4 some I use extensively with the small ones used in hard condition over 10C discharge with more than 200 cycles already and no sign of capacity degradation.

Which brings up another question:
The description always says Lithium Ion with "trade name phosphate". What leads you to believe that that is actually just a mechanical variation on LiFePO₄ chemistry?

[electrodacus]

Which brings up another question:
The description always says Lithium Ion with "trade name phosphate". What leads you to believe that that is actually just a mechanical variation on LiFePO₄ chemistry?

Sorry I'm not here to advertise A123 System. To my knowledge they where the first to come with a LiFePO4 battery maybe they even have a patent not sure.
One thing is sure from my test they have the lowest internal resistance of any battery so they can put out insane amounts of power well over 10C not that this of any use for solar energy storage.
Best use based of this is for power tools and Dewalt has some products that use A123 System cells the smaller 18650.

[Sunking]

Again A123 Systems does not exist. They went Bankrupt 1.5 years ago.

[pleppik]

You are in fantasy land saying LFP has 3000 cycles. More like 300 to 600 cycles.

Jeepers, cut him some slack. The manufacturer's data sheet really does say 3,000 cycles at 100% discharge.

Maybe he's not being skeptical enough, but he's not making it up.

[Sunking]

Jeepers, cut him some slack. The manufacturer's data sheet really does say 3,000 cycles at 100% discharge.

Maybe he's not being skeptical enough, but he's not making it up.

Do some research and read the fine print. I have been working with batteries professionally for 36 years starting on USN submarines. His predictions are made on fantasy.

[pleppik]

Again A123 Systems does not exist. They went Bankrupt 1.5 years ago.

Most of the assets were purchased out of bankruptcy by a Chinese auto manufacturer and reorganized as A123 Systems LLC, which appears to be a going concern.

There was a Boston Globe article just a few weeks ago that the new owner of A123 is trying to buy Fisker Automotive, too. Fisker was the old A123's main customer, and Fisker's collapse (couldn't beat Tesla) is part of what dragged down A123.

So it looks like the Chinese are trying to put Humpty Dumpty back together again...

[pleppik]

Do some research and read the fine print. I have been working with batteries professionally for 36 years starting on USN submarines. His predictions are made on fantasy.

That may be true, and I can't evaluate the claims. All I'm saying is it wasn't his fantasy.

[Sunking]

That may be true, and I can't evaluate the claims. All I'm saying is it wasn't his fantasy.

Go back and read all the critiques. Try looking at the controller. Not even remotely safe or sound. There are many red flags this guy is raising. He thinks most are DIY and does not realize their are professionals on here and know better.

There is one very simple reason Lithium is not a major player in RE. The economics do not work plain and simple. Technically it can be done but at 5 to 10 times the cost of lead acid. Even using lead acid batteries it does not make economic sense if you have commercial power. Battery systems cannot compete period.

[electrodacus]

Go back and read all the critiques. Try looking at the controller. Not even remotely safe or sound. There are many red flags this guy is raising. He thinks most are DIY and does not realize their are professionals on here and know better.

There is one very simple reason Lithium is not a major player in RE. The economics do not work plain and simple. Technically it can be done but at 5 to 10 times the cost of lead acid. Even using lead acid batteries it does not make economic sense if you have commercial power. Battery systems cannot compete period.

This seems a bit offensive to me.
Can you be more specific what is not safe with my controller ? I think I addressed all the concerns if you read my replays.
I also think I'm as professional as you can get.
The problem is most people are not able to calculate the cost of storing energy comparing price per Ah or Wh capacity has nothing to do with the cost of storing energy.
There can be other reasons like the absence of solar charge controllers for Lithium.
Is like LED's not long ago. They where superior in all aspects but complicated to use. I used LED's for illumination at my first house about 10 years ago.
Is possible that I'm a bit to early with this I will see soon enough.

[Sunking]

This seems a bit offensive to me.

I don't care, get your big boy pants on.

[Sunking]

Is possible that I'm a bit to early with this I will see soon enough.

That part I agree with. The problem is the economics do not work yet. Lithium economics only work with EV's where specific energy density (wh/Kg) is a priority and thus justifies the extreme cost. Specific Energy Density is of no concern in a RE application. Makes no difference in a RE system if the battery weighs 1000 or 250 pounds. Most important aspect is life cycle cost...

It is a No Brainer if you tell a client or prospective user you have two choices for battery.

1. Lead Acid battery with 5 year replacement cost of $10,000

or

2. LFP with 5 year replacement cost of $50,000

Which do you think they will choose every time?

Or option three. Pay the utility company $2500 every 5 years and do not worry about replacing anything, maintenance, or limiting and watching daily use. That will really get their attention.

[electrodacus]

That part I agree with. The problem is the economics do not work yet. Lithium economics only work with EV's where specific energy density (wh/Kg) is a priority and thus justifies the extreme cost. Specific Energy Density is of no concern in a RE application. Makes no difference in a RE system if the battery weighs 1000 or 250 pounds. Most important aspect is life cycle cost...

It is a No Brainer if you tell a client or prospective user you have two choices for battery.

1. Lead Acid battery with 5 year replacement cost of $10,000

or

2. LFP with 5 year replacement cost of $50,000

Which do you think they will choose every time?

Or option three. Pay the utility company $2500 every 5 years and do not worry about replacing anything, maintenance, or limiting and watching daily use. That will really get their attention.

Did you read my other replays ?
I mentioned that you can use Lithium-ion charged at 3.9V instead of 4.2V since like you also mentioned weight of the battery is not a problem in stationary applications
The battery charged at 3.9V will have only about 60% the stated capacity at 4.2V but it will last 8x more cycles than charged at 4.2V much lower battery degradation no voltage stress and safer.
That will make a lithium battery about 5x less expensive for stationary energy storage.
You can search and see articles about this the 3.92V is also the standard for military application for long life.
I guess there is very little information and a lot of misinformation regarding Lithium batteries.
Also this off-grid and DIY market is way to small for any company to invest the effort in promoting an selling Lithium based storage systems.
My main 8 cell LiFePO4 100Ah GBS battery was about 1200$ including shipping and is in use in the last 6 months providing power even right now for my laptop.
I'm a bit extreme in energy efficiency so this battery will probably be small for most but 50000$ is a bit of an exaggeration I think. What sort of monthly energy use do you think and average off-grid house in US uses?
My use is about 60 to 100kWh/month production is higher but the rest is just lost (not used).

[russ]

My use is about 60 to 100kWh/month production is higher but the rest is just lost (not used).

Not many wish to live in that style!

Additionally, where I live electricity is the cheapest source for heat also.