Nickel Iron vs. Lead Acid - Off Grid battery debate

[DWBayless]

Many of the stories I see about how well NiFes do, that have lasted for many years, are from people with the old, original Edison cells. Is there anything in their manufacture that would suggest that they would be particularly more robust than the current offerings from Florida, China, or Russia? What about the Zappworks battery? Are they still refurbished old cells, or are they manufacturing to Edison's specifications?

There is a dearth of real information about these cells out there, and darn it!, I'm a drunken public affairs type... (currently non-praticing) not a battery engineer.

[DWBayless]

I sometimes wish I still worked at the Naval History and Heritage Command. They have all of those old deck logs on file. It would be an interesting few hours, reading them.

[Sundetective]

the Legendary Captain / Admiral Charles M. "Savvy" Cooke Jr.

Some of that Getting ready for WWI Story was brushed on in the

'Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) Battery Life Cycle Chart .. From the Manufacturer'

Thread Located in the Fieldlines Forum.

The Hydrogen problem was a ventilation issue that was predicted by
The Legendary (eventual)

Admiral Charles M. "Savvy" Cooke Jr.

There was a lot of politics involved aside from any merits of the Ni-Fe.
It no Lie.

They tried to hang the whole deal on Savvy but people knew better deep down.
He and his entire Submarine crew are pure Legend.

There is a nice taste about Commander / Captain / Four Star Admiral Charles "Savvy" Cooke
In the Fieldlines Thread.

Old Bill Blake

[russ]

What happened? How could it all be Lost Knowledge now ?

Bill Blake

What happened now Blathering Bill?

[DWBayless]

Cells for submarine use were constructed, though probably not many. Extensive testing of the suitability of Edison cells for submarines occurred on SS-25, prior to WWI. There was a H2 explosion, presumably due to the additional amount of it formed by the batteries while charging. SS - 48 was to have the cells installed, though if they were, they were removed before commissioning. They were decided against. Three submarines from allied European powers were said to have used them, but I haven't been able to track down what boats, from what nations.

[Sundetective]

Sunking,

Perhaps it would be best if you to Listen to the Book from
The right hand man of His Excellency - his da-n self.

'The Submarine Boat Type of Edison Storage Battery

By Doctor Miller Reese Hutchison... Chief Engineer to and

Personal Representive of Thomas A. Edison'.

It gets no higher.

Bill Blake

[Sunking]

Sun Detective to my knowledge NiFe has never been used in the USN submarine fleet going back to WW-I, to this day they still use FLA batteries for many reasons. Real important reason is lead palys well with Gamma radiation and does not deteriorate like iron under thhe presence. Internal resistance of NiFe is extremely high making them unusable in high power applications.

The USN and Enersys are now testing and developing VRLA batteries to be used in the USN fleet, but that is going to take another 10 to 15 years of testing before the Navy even considers it. They are testing a Thin Plate Pure Lead (TPPL). Look i tup and see for yourself. TPPL has higher energy density than FLA and even lower internal resistance.

As for commercial and industrial applications, NiFe is DOA. No one uses it other than some very old mining and rail signalling applications, but they are not replaced when they reach end of service. If NiFe had any real application especially as energy storage in power generation don't you think someone would be testing and developing? Fact is there is ZERO interest, ZERO money, and Zero research going into NiFe. That ought to tell everyone something about them.

As for solar, they hold no advantage for anyone. FLA has fair charge efficiency, not great but fair. NiFe has terrible charge efficiency which means you must compensate with higher panel wattages, that means Mo Money. They also have fairly high internal resistances. much higher than FLA. That means you cannot put much Load Current on them without significant voltage sag. Again FLA only has fair to poor intenral resistance and has to be limited to C/8 maximum discharge rates before you start exceeding 2 to 3% voltage sag. NiFe is limited to around a maximum C/20 discharge rate before you exceed 2 to 3% voltage drop. Only way to compensate for the voltage sag is by over sizing the NiFe bank which adds up to astronomical expense as NiFe cost are roughly 400% higher than FLA and 200% higher than LFP.

Economics and technical specs are just not there for NiFe. Only real application for NiFe is where charge efficiency, economics, low maintenance, and high demand are of no concern. I can only think of two or three applications that fit. Emergency lighting, mining lighting, and railroad signalling where discharge rates are extremely low and cost does not matter.

Sorry guys but if you do your homework, you will discover what I am saying is spot on. Those that support NiFe either have not done their homework, in denial, or have a vested interest in them.

[Sundetective]

Sunking,

After 17 years those old Ni-Fe Patents were not worth a dime.
It became 20 years in 1995.
Perhaps your thinking of a Trademark.

Some people worry about batteries where a single malfunction
Could cost them the whole bank.

They had it down real sweet with the Edison Submarine Boat
Nickel Iron Batteries.

They were big, bad, easy fill, easy drain, easily rejuvinated back to
Near new condition - just because the Captain said so.

They could even use them as CO2 scrubbers to save Lives.
They had Filters to clean-up the electrolyte.
They had it all.

Took millions and it took years of War effort AFTER the First and 2nd
Rounds of Years and Millions in Ni-Fe development.
It was the Third Coming of magnificent survival technology.

Some young guys with balls need to bring it back.
Can I get a witness

What happened? How could it all be Lost Knowledge now ?

Bill Blake

[Sunking]

If it were me I woul dnot even consider NiFe batteries. Just way too expensive, too much work, too little power. They were originally invented for the EV. Edison Electric aka GE never sold off patent rights decades ago and gave it up as a lost cause, and now anyone chi-com can make them. EV's are back, but not NiFe. I would use LiFePo4 (LFP) before I even considered NiFe. LFP is less expensive, little maintenance, deliver high power, and no special charge requirements.

[Sundetective]

Daryle,

How many people have ever reported on their experience with the
Iron Edison, Changhong Batteries Ni-Fe cells ?

It's liable to be a while on the little Encell batteries with the huge claims.

If we listen to Changhong nobody is ever going to be able to really
Evaluate modern Ni-Fe batteries without Carbonate tests of the
Electrolyte AND Lead tests of the electrolyte.

It's in their new instruction book. It's always been there - just hidden by
The resellers in America.

Same goes with this new Encell electrolyte only more so and more tests.
They have a lot of new stuff for that 'Lye Type' electrolyte to gobble up.

Hopefully everything will be real cunnin however some people want
More than just promises. It's called Lab Reports.
Not much money if somebody isn't scared to get down to it.
I know of a wonderful Lab that does soil, manure, fertilizer, water, etc.
For many years - cheap. They have the best machines just waiting on them.

Bill Blake

[DWBayless]

New System Planning in the Works

I'm glad I found this site, and this thread. It has given me some serious food for thought. I've been reading posts here for the last hour or so.

My wife, and I purchased some land in West Virginia, USA. With any luck, we will start building an off-grid cob/strawbale house in the spring. There is power on the property. It would likely cost less to move the hookup to the new house, than it would to build an off-grid system. Even so, we're going to give it a go. Utility power goes off line often here anyhow, for anywhere from a day or two, to a week or two, when it goes out. We really do live way out in the sticks.

I am giving a NiFe bank serious thought, after reading about both the benefits, and drawbacks. I think the drawbacks, for what we are trying to do, are worth living with. Hopefully I won't think I've made a mistake a few years down the line. Many thanks to the folks who have used/are using them, who have posted their experiences.

Speaking of, has anyone given the cells that Iron Edison sells, manufactured by Encell a go?

Thanks much!

Cheers,
Daryle

[russ]

So we have concluded hydrogen is no more dangerous than any number of other things that can be found around the household and needs only to be handled with knowledge and respect like those other things.
Not like all other things - a combustible gas handling culture or combustible liquid handling culture is not accidental. You and your HHO bunch are loonies of the first degree.

You can cry baloney as much as you want. I am the one with data and a much lower power bill. Lots of chatter and nothing more


As for the turbine, it has worked without fail when I needed it to and it has not been down since I put it up. Yeah it would take a 35MPH wind all the time to get the name plate rating out of it and no one wants to live in that environment. However, until I get some cooperation out of the township I am not doing anything more with that. It's just not worth putting out more money just to have them tell me I can't have it. If I get that cooperation I will probably build my next one from scratch.

Brian - This is not a site where all things declared to be green are automatically worshipped - you are spreading it thick.

[Brian1]

So we have concluded hydrogen is no more dangerous than any number of other things that can be found around the household and needs only to be handled with knowledge and respect like those other things.

You can cry baloney as much as you want. I am the one with data and a much lower power bill. The 50 year old piece of cast iron drain pipe I cut out of the drain system to install the exchanger was very clean inside. The exchanger was installed in 2005. 3 weeks ago I replaced all the cast iron drainage leading to the exchanger with PVC and took that opportunity to examine the inside of the exchanger. It was as clean as the pipe I removed to install it. There is no sludge buildup at all. I am not forcing you to get one. You have my permission to continue to throw energy and money down the drain.


As for the turbine, it has worked without fail when I needed it to and it has not been down since I put it up. Yeah it would take a 35MPH wind all the time to get the name plate rating out of it and no one wants to live in that environment. However, until I get some cooperation out of the township I am not doing anything more with that. It's just not worth putting out more money just to have them tell me I can't have it. If I get that cooperation I will probably build my next one from scratch.

[russ]

I totally disagree with your assessment of hydrogen but that can be debated else where. I was taught to make hydrogen in 8th grade and had to do it to pass a test. I consider it no more dangerous than natural gas, gasoline or gunpowder. Handle it with knowledge and respect like the other 3 items I mentioned and you won't have a problem.
Actually hydrogen is safer than the other substances you mention - far more so than gunpowder or gasoline - however that is only if handled correctly and proper precautions are taken. In the hands of the average DIY type and expecially the HHO bunch it a bomb in waiting. I spent a lifetime making the stuff - we recirculated close to a million cubic meters per hour at the last plant complex I ran.

The drain water heat exchanger works absolutely great and of all the things I have tried or used in the alternate energy or efficiency world, that one works exactly as advertised.

Baloney - you have no idea of heat transfer - especially low grade heat transfer. They are boat anchors and no more. The scummy water going through them will cause problems as well. That is unless one likes to take showers that are hours long - then a better method of conservation is to take shorter showers.

As for the "bird whacker", I have not seen a single dead bird yet in the entire time it has been up while in the last year I have found 3 dead birds in front of the store my wife works at from flying into the window. And while it should definitely be up higher (not happening until the township cooperates) and I am 3 miles from a class 3 wind zone, it does actually contribute to battery charging when there is wind. The reason I put it up was because I was originally told to put up a weather station for a year to see if it was worth putting up a turbine. The cheapest weather station with the capabilities needed was still more expensive than the turbine. I decided to just put up the turbine. It was a good exercise in engineering and installing a guyed turbine tower as well. I am not unhappy about that decision.

No mention of how few kWh it has put out - the small turbines will put out their nameplate rating under storm conditions only. There are a few locations where they can work but then as they are generally junk it takes more work to keep them running than they are worth. A turbine as cheap as you mentioned is definitely in the junk class.

Brian

Comments in bold in the text

[Brian1]

OK I found it and deleted it.