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Nickel Iron vs. Lead Acid - Off Grid battery debate

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  • Brian1
    replied
    OK I see that my website is posted at the bottom of my last post. I have tried to delete it from my profile without success. It appears I do not have permission to delete this or editing my profile does not work. I give you permission to delete this from my profile.

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  • Brian1
    replied
    Checking in after being very busy. Yesterday was one year since I put my batteries into service. They have been working fine and I am happy so far.

    This is also the first time I have seen the mod note attached to my last post.
    Sorry if I posted a link that I wasn't supposed to. I don't remember but I must have and you must have seen it and I guess it was my website since you seem to have seen that.

    I totally disagree with your assessment of hydrogen but that can be debated else where. I was taught to make hydrogen in 8th grade and had to do it to pass a test. I consider it no more dangerous than natural gas, gasoline or gunpowder. Handle it with knowledge and respect like the other 3 items I mentioned and you won't have a problem.

    The drain water heat exchanger works absolutely great and of all the things I have tried or used in the alternate energy or efficiency world, that one works exactly as advertised. It cut my power usage for heating water by at least 30% and made an instant 100kWh/month difference in my power usage. Everything I claim about it on my page is actually absolutely true. It works even better now that I have, as of 3 weeks ago, replaced all of the pictured cast iron drain system with PVC which soaks much less heat and delivers hotter water to the exchanger. Intake temp of water is 62.5 and output temp is 84.9. Which would you rather heat? Say what you will, my data proves otherwise and so does my electric bill.

    As for the "bird whacker", I have not seen a single dead bird yet in the entire time it has been up while in the last year I have found 3 dead birds in front of the store my wife works at from flying into the window. And while it should definitely be up higher (not happening until the township cooperates) and I am 3 miles from a class 3 wind zone, it does actually contribute to battery charging when there is wind. The reason I put it up was because I was originally told to put up a weather station for a year to see if it was worth putting up a turbine. The cheapest weather station with the capabilities needed was still more expensive than the turbine. I decided to just put up the turbine. It was a good exercise in engineering and installing a guyed turbine tower as well. I am not unhappy about that decision.

    Brian

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  • Brian1
    replied
    Inetdog,
    I can see how the bubbles would carry electrolyte up to the caps. I think that means the catalyst beads need to be a farther above the liquid level than just where the caps are. I just checked and my caps are wet so I guess it does.
    That said, if the catalyst has a limited life then that is the way it is.
    Mike,
    Let me know how that works. I am interested.

    Brian
    Mod note - please do not post your link without permission from Jason - there many parts of your site that are quite green but between useless and dangerous.

    For starters -
    1) Hydrogen - not a home toy except for fools and those with a death wish.
    2) Drain water heat exchanger - wrapping a copper tube around the outside of a pipe is the world's worst heat exchanger.
    3) The bird whacker you have for a wind turbine is useless in most situations.
    Last edited by russ; 06-24-2014, 02:50 AM.

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  • Mike90250
    replied
    As to "de-airing" the resupply water, heating it up will reduce the dissolved gas caring capacity of water, which is why fish die if a lake warms up. So I'll try setting my DI water jugs out in the sun for a bit of solar heat before watering the batteries.

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  • inetdog
    replied
    The problem with platinum catalysts in vehicle use, as I understand it, is of course not the electrolyte but other elements present in the combustion gas mixture.
    In the case of lead acid batteries, I have seen manufacturer statements that the recombiner type caps do have a limited lifespan, but no clear mention of just what the limiting factor is.
    In any case, when batteries (either lead acid or NiFe) gas liberally some of the electrolyte is carried up by the gas bubbles and will get to the catalyst in the form of either an acid or alkali mist.

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  • Brian1
    replied
    Yeah it's pricey. I found it while searching and thought I'd show it anyway. Don't know if it would actually work for our purposes.

    The only way to get "purer than distilled" is to electrolyze water into hydrogen and oxygen and recombine. In the absence of a catalyst the only other way is to burn them together and capture the steam and condense it. Another source for platinum beads for catalyzer is catalytic converters from cars. It would take cleaning them really well but they can be cleaned and would work.

    I am not proposing a watering system. The part of watering systems that come in contact with the electrolyte is the valve that insures the proper fill level. That is likely the part that usually fails. I am proposing a way to collect the hydrogen and oxygen from the batteries and recombine them for clean water to refill the batteries with.

    I am not sure why platinum recombining beads would fail unless the electrolyte actually came in contact with them. I have to look into this more. I would like any information anyone has about failed recombiners that were used with alkali electrolyte.

    I thought of wine/beer makers air locks also. I don't think they would work. What I have in mind is something much bigger to allow for more movement without sucking in air.

    I was thinking of tanks of argon from welding supply. Probably much cheaper.
    Nitrogen is too close to Oxygen in weight and they mix too well. I think Argon is heavier.

    Again just thinking out loud here as I try to catch up.
    Brian

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  • Mike90250
    replied
    Originally posted by Brian1 View Post
    Wow - that's cool. a Potassium Carbonate Refractometer. But nearly $400 smackers !! that would make my glassware and titration chemicals obsolete. Can it really be used on a variable density electrolyte (full or at refill mark) with some of the lithium in it ?

    I've got no way to get "purer than distilled" water here in the boonies. The DI water from the "water store" tests out to 0 ppm

    What I've understood about the watering systems, they are acid resistant, not base resistant. So in a couple years....... they fail. Same with the platinum cats. So I never wanted to invest in them. I've got 42 cells, with 1 vent each.

    I've thought of winemakers airlocks, but wonder if they will suck in air, as the batteries cool off, or if there is enough gas generation to prevent that - or a bladder to store reserve gas (at just the right explosive mix of H & o2)

    If I was in the "city" I'd consider a nitrogen purge with the bleed off of a cryogenic 160 liter LN2 cylinder. But then I'd be in the city and would not need the gas.

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  • Brian1
    replied
    When I was working on the hydrogen generator a place in NJ was selling platinum beads for this purpose at $80/lb.
    Brian

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  • inetdog
    replied
    Originally posted by Brian1 View Post
    Mike,
    I would be interested in more information about the test equipment you have.
    50g/liter is .05%. Seems the best way to avoid this problem is to make this a closed system that doesn't allow any outside gasses in at all and also to use water purer than distilled. I would think that recombiners on each of the cells to combine the hydrogen and oxygen back into water. This would also solve the watering issue also as almost all of the hydrogen and oxygen would be recombined into water which would drop back into the cells. I was going to use platinum beads as a safety feature in my hydrogen generator. I would pass the hydrogen through the beads and any oxygen would combine with the hydrogen back into water and drop back into the process leaving only pure hydrogen pass on to storage.

    1st thought off the top of my head for this is containers of platinum beads on each of the vent/watering holes with tubes coming out the top and then joined together to collect anything that makes it passed the beads and provide for expansion due to temperature change and from there into a water sealed arrangement where water will be displaced and replaced as required. I would likely consider using the clear medical tubing I have used on other projects which has a conductive strip molded into it so it can be grounded to eliminate the chance of static sparks. I will have to investigate this gain since I was only having to insure it would work in an oxygen environment.
    More thought is required.
    Brian
    Platinum beads sound expensive.
    Mike: How many individual vent caps are there in your system?

    Leave a comment:


  • Brian1
    replied
    Forgot to add this to my post.

    http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00HZVRV4A/...SIN=B00HZVRV4A

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  • Brian1
    replied
    Mike,
    I would be interested in more information about the test equipment you have.
    50g/liter is .05%. Seems the best way to avoid this problem is to make this a closed system that doesn't allow any outside gasses in at all and also to use water purer than distilled. I would think that recombiners on each of the cells to combine the hydrogen and oxygen back into water. This would also solve the watering issue also as almost all of the hydrogen and oxygen would be recombined into water which would drop back into the cells. I was going to use platinum beads as a safety feature in my hydrogen generator. I would pass the hydrogen through the beads and any oxygen would combine with the hydrogen back into water and drop back into the process leaving only pure hydrogen pass on to storage.

    1st thought off the top of my head for this is containers of platinum beads on each of the vent/watering holes with tubes coming out the top and then joined together to collect anything that makes it passed the beads and provide for expansion due to temperature change and from there into a water sealed arrangement where water will be displaced and replaced as required. I would likely consider using the clear medical tubing I have used on other projects which has a conductive strip molded into it so it can be grounded to eliminate the chance of static sparks. I will have to investigate this gain since I was only having to insure it would work in an oxygen environment.
    More thought is required.
    Brian

    Leave a comment:


  • Sundetective
    replied
    Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post
    They are thirsty beasts. At least with all the water they are electrolyzing, they will be displacing Co2 from getting in there. If you are in a site that you have mostly reliable sun - I'd say use lead-acid. I've known my area has days/weeks of cloud cover and scant solar harvest in those times, so I run a generator to keep the system up. Lead acid would require much more generator run time than I have been using.

    But Chris Olsen uses a novel interpretation of "cycle" and only brings his lead acid bank up to full charge on rare occasions, and saves many cycles, and seems to not be sulfating his cells either, and getting good life and capacity with them.

    I tried to get the 'Modified Production, GiantBatteryCo Battery Bank' philosophy that Chris was running
    figured out back in 2012.

    We discussed it briefly in a different forum.
    Never did figure out how you 'Use 5 battery Days - but 4 of them are Free'.

    Ran a great snip and a Link from Giant Battery back then that said:

    <snip>

    "Never make a habit of giving short charges during lunch or break time.

    Each short charge constitutes a “cycle” and over time will significantly affect the performance

    and life of the battery".
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Perhaps I didn't get it but it seemed that incomplete sessions of Solar or Wind charging wouldn't play
    into the Giant Battery charging scheme.
    It would be nice to see a more up to date thread on it sometime.

    Bill Blake

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  • inetdog
    replied
    Originally posted by Sundetective View Post
    150-200 Cycles.
    Plain and simple.
    Just to make it 100% clear, that does not mean that you should expect to replace the electrolyte after 200 cycles, just that you MUST TEST after 200 cycles and be prepared to replace the electrolyte if your luck has run out.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sundetective
    replied
    Nickel Iron Battery Electrolyte

    Originally posted by Brian1 View Post
    Mike,
    I went with these batteries after killing many FLAs. I needed to get away from the sulfation problem. Winter is pretty tough around here.

    Bill, after I downloaded that document I found I already had it on my hard drive from previous searches through that website before I bought the batteries. Now I just need to know how to measure potassium carbonates. When I get that figured out I can start to take readings and add them to my data.

    Brian

    Your Changhong reseller should be able to school you in how to check for carbonates
    if they are running any kind of a business. I went over the Changhong Battery requirements
    with both resellers located in Colorado years ago.
    Normally they pick and choose what they want to copy from the Chinese Manuals
    for their own version of the Ni-Fe resellers Owner's Manuals. They also pick what info they want to
    alter or suppress which has been a big problem for people. I kept some of the Ni-Fe resellers Literature
    to compare with the Chinese Manuals years ago.

    The Nickel Iron Electrolyte is at the heart of the Nickel Iron Riddles from so long ago.

    Mr. Edison left many clues in his Patents which tie into the 'context thinking' that it takes today.
    As in what to look for going wrong with the electrolyte.
    If your not worried about getting the maximum number of years at high Capacity Levels
    it's not important. So far with the welded negative and positive plates Chinese Ni-Fe is 'throw away'
    as they honestly and clearly state in their Life Cycles Chart and the Life Cycle written explanations
    going all the way back through 'The Changhong Gospels'.

    The modern myths, tales, stories, fabrications, etc. never were planted by China.
    They don't seem to need that kind of business. They are what they are and please customers
    all over the world who know what to actually look for and what to really expect.

    A lot of those huge Government customers over there 'Can't Live on Fairy Tales'.

    Changhong Batteries provided some clues and some instructions years ago but with the
    Chinese to English Translation and different authors as time goes by you really need to pay
    very close attention.

    Sometimes the meaning of what they are trying to get across can change with one or two words later
    in the same document. Or enhance your 'context thinking' from document to document.

    The Changhong Owners Manual old Bill is talking about is the new 2014 version. You may have something
    older with the same Title. They do that sometimes like with the current Solar PV Application Brochure.
    It contains the 'Solar Blivet Charging' method used by lots of different batteries causing financial
    havoc and woe to many.
    We are still years away from a good long Look at 'The Ni-Fe Theory of Battery-tivity'

    Whatever, with 'Diamond' John D'Angelo (one of the Ni-Fe resellers) it's in his Warranty that you
    WILL check for carbonates every year OR you WILL Lose your Warranty.
    Plain and simple.
    Changhong has one Line to Lay on you for Float mode and another Line for real battery cycle work.
    It's best to be educated as to the difference.
    Mr. Edison and Changhong were ALWAYS Looking for more problems in the electrolyte
    than just carbonates. Dat nasty Lye type electrolyte can be rough on a person.
    Now the Chinese are spelling the problems out just a little better and not leaving things quite so nebulous.
    Just a few words with them can be a huge deal.

    <snip from Changhong Batteries talking about Ni-Fe Batteries doing real work>


    NICKEL IRON BATTERY ELECTROLYTE REPLACEMENT

    3.3.3

    The electrolyte will absorb the carbon dioxide in

    the air and create carbonate easily during

    operation. When carbonate in the electrolyte is

    over 50g/L, the performance of the battery

    will be badly effected. After charge and

    discharge for 150~200 cycles or operate for 1

    year, please check the carbonate in the

    electrolyte. If the carbonate in the electrolyte is

    over 50g/L, please replace the electrolyte.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    150-200 Cycles.
    Plain and simple.

    Bill Blake

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  • Mike90250
    replied
    Originally posted by Brian1 View Post
    ..... Now I just need to know how to measure potassium carbonates. When I get that figured out I can start to take readings and add them to my data.

    Brian
    The company I bought my batteries from, sells a test kit ( it's not a simple test, needs some lab gear) which I can't locate right now on their web site.

    Leave a comment:

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