Nickel Iron vs. Lead Acid - Off Grid battery debate

[inetdog]

A few square pegs get reshaped - no big deal.

Unless you happen to be one of the pegs.

[russ]

Edison, in my opinion, was a ruthless business man famous for pounding square pegs in round holes.

You just described most truly successful business people, sports people and on - No one calls Steve jobs, Larry Ellison (of Oracle), Micheal Schumacher (formula 1) or Tiger Woods nice guys - they call them the best at what they do. A few square pegs get reshaped - no big deal.

[Robert1234]

Wrote you a lengthy reply, but it didn't post. Don't have enough energy to do it again right now.

Summation, I don't intend on reinventing the wheel - simply seeing if I want to put it on my car. I agree with a lot of what you state above.

P.S. Edison, in my opinion, was a ruthless business man famous for pounding square pegs in round holes. Looks like there are some that are following in his footsteps with the overselling of his technology even today.

[Sundetective]

I think any input you can provide, based on actual testing even though it involves a limited number of cells and does not include the current production Changhong type, will be welcome (to me anyway.) Although I am sure that the discussion will generate a lot of heat and gas too!

In todays dollars it would probably run you hundreds of millions and hundreds of thousands of man hours to do as much
testing as Mr. Edison and his gang already did with Nickel Iron Batteries.

Don't forget the US Navy years and the US Navy Millions LONG after the 'Initial Years'.
That's when we really shine.

Why most of it seems to have become Lost knowledge is not my concern. Cracking the riddles to my own personal satisfaction was.
As far as reader interest goes all I want to know is why do many of the nickel iron threads run into the thousands of views.
Not just here but in other forums as well. This thread alone is near 21,000 views. Give me a break.

Without a doubt one of the Ni-Fe posters that did my little gang the most good never got anything but a hard time in the forums that
I found most of his posts in.
This group had the Bull by the horns with 'Marcus' when he offered more and people went silent on him.
During that time I was on a research project for my son and wasn't checking in at all. It's too bad for me.

Look at the record for all the years that Beutilityfree and all the thousands of Nickel Iron Batteries that they claim were sold.
Why has the output of experienced Ni-Fe posters been so incredibly stingy.
There has been a bit of warm-up that the Ni-Fe Cells are coming in a number of forums.
There has been a few cases when they thought that they had been beat by John Mario or were aggravated with
Changhong Batteries in China.

How many case histories on the Chinese Ni-Fe cells do we actually have in 17 years?
Can you fill all your fingers?
If you look though old HomePower Mags John was not actually the first guy to sell those Ni-Fe Cells so it's over 17 years.

Never in US History has a gifted technology been so mutilated and pissed on than this deal.
However I had to run out of time for it other than an occasionally post now. it was almost 3 months with only one post.
It was a wonderful diverson and did it's job to advance other cutting edge research that would start to burn me every 7 months or so.
Nothing I know of could have done such a great job and presented such great riddles built up over 100 years.

Bill Blake

[inetdog]

Nickel iron batteries intrigue me, so I got a couple of the old Edison banks from what I believe were previously used in fork lifts. I've built up a good bit of experience and information while reconditioning these cells, and currently have 20 x C6 cells hooked up to 3 of my 195 watt panels to see what they are capable of. If anybody wants information and/or desires to involve me in this discussion, I'll be happy to respond as best I can.

For the record, I'm not a Ni-Fe nut. I've got LA batteries too. I believe I can add quite a unique unbiased view on this subject as I'm simply in the investigative stages of what power storage I'm going to put in at our pond cabin this spring as it will be totally off-grid. I've been doing a lot of charge / discharge studies and have seen both good and bad with both technologies - unfortunately (or fortunately perhaps) my bent for this forum on the Ni-Fe view will be from the aspect of what you might be able to expect 50+ years down the road.

I think any input you can provide, based on actual testing even though it involves a limited number of cells and does not include the current production Changhong type, will be welcome (to me anyway.) Although I am sure that the discussion will generate a lot of heat and gas too!

[Robert1234]

Nickel iron batteries intrigue me, so I got a couple of the old Edison banks from what I believe were previously used in fork lifts. I've built up a good bit of experience and information while reconditioning these cells, and currently have 20 x C6 cells hooked up to 3 of my 195 watt panels to see what they are capable of. If anybody wants information and/or desires to involve me in this discussion, I'll be happy to respond as best I can.

Mike,

That's a lot of water consumption in your batteries!! but your cells are quite a bit bigger than mine and without knowing your power input parameters I can't tell if that is not to be expected. As you may already know, any charge applied to your cells above 1.48 volts per cell will result in splitting water so I really don't think you are dealing with carbonate issues, but rather hopefully just charging inefficiencies. (FYI - I'm not suggesting trickle charging but rather simply lending info.) What charge parameters are you using? What float voltage?

You said something about getting a "carbonate test kit." I measure Free KOH & total alkalinity using a Barium Chloride quench, filtration, and titration method. The difference I attribute to carbonate. It's a kind of involved method, but since I work in a lab and have the solutions already prepared it isn't that big a deal for me. What test kit did you get? and what results have you observed.

Bill,

For the record, I'm not a Ni-Fe nut. I've got LA batteries too. I believe I can add quite a unique unbiased view on this subject as I'm simply in the investigative stages of what power storage I'm going to put in at our pond cabin this spring as it will be totally off-grid. I've been doing a lot of charge / discharge studies and have seen both good and bad with both technologies - unfortunately (or fortunately perhaps) my bent for this forum on the Ni-Fe view will be from the aspect of what you might be able to expect 50+ years down the road.

[Sundetective]

Amen to that.

Using Potash several times a week to make our soap products, I'd rather fool with it over Sulphuric Acid anyday...

Of course baking soda and vinegar on hand just in case.

And I have had some nasty spills. Just makes everything slimey. LOL... I have had NaOH and KOH spill on me and no burns to date. either I have tough skin or am smart enough to rinse immediately. LOL...

And I do what most don't do, I mix this Alkali with an Acid every time I use it. I love the explosions. You get a feel for how the mix will expand and if you are good, you can CONTROL the combustion (as it were)

Experience trumps Theory everyday...

Since the game that Mike is involved with takes stacks of Tens of Thousands to play most people are
going to have to learn a little about medium-large NiFe Cells anyway they can.

To study the Ni-Fe battery guarantee in force at the time of Mike's purchase is to know a good bit more as far as what to look for.


Bill Blake

[SolarJoe]

I'm a novice in this field, but keep us posted on the info you find out! Thanks

[giles117]

Doing research on the net does not replace experience.

Amen to that.

Using Potash several times a week to make our soap products, I'd rather fool with it over Sulphuric Acid anyday...

Of course baking soda and vinegar on hand just in case.

And I have had some nasty spills. Just makes everything slimey. LOL... I have had NaOH and KOH spill on me and no burns to date. either I have tough skin or am smart enough to rinse immediately. LOL...

And I do what most don't do, I mix this Alkali with an Acid every time I use it. I love the explosions. You get a feel for how the mix will expand and if you are good, you can CONTROL the combustion (as it were)

Experience trumps Theory everyday...

[Sundetective]

Bill you don't happen to live in or around Norman OK?

No Dereck that's not me or the KW Kid as far as I know.
Close as I get is a wild girlfriend named Norma long ago.
She was South of Pittsburgh. One of the fun but hazy years of old.
I lived out in the middle of no-where on a 3,000 acre heirship.
A few miles to any civilization but we had free natural gas and electric all day long.
100 pound bags of potatoes were $3 at the local store.
We used a generator and batteries on projects in the woods and added just a tad of water
once or twice per year. Ran the batteries into the ground and didn't worry about it.


Bill Blake

[Sunking]

Bill you don't happen to live in or around Norman OK?

[inetdog]

No, do you have a link to their comments, or can you paraphrase them here? Yesterday and today, added another 23 gallons to the bank to bring them up to the Full mark again.

Hi Mike,

Looking at the Changhong site, I see that they now (not sure how long ago introduced?) offer their Series NF-S cells supposedly optimized for Solar PV. The first thing I noticed about the description is that they rate the AmpHour capacity at the 120 hour rate!!. (I guess that almost make sense when planning at a 3-4 day autonomy size.)
The second thing that caught my eye was that they claim that the wide separation between plates and excess electrolyte in this series promotes recombination of the H2 and 02. (I am not sure how that can actually happen without a catalyst!)

What Changhong cell models are you using? (I apologize for not digging back through the threads if you mentioned it earlier.)

[Sundetective]

No, do you have a link to their comments, or can you paraphrase them here? Yesterday and today, added another 23 gallons to the bank to bring them up to the Full mark again.

Mike,

I tried that before. It got striped down which was a big surprise to me.

Just let it be a Lesson to me.


'Changhong Tech Support Speaks Softly - The Ni-Fe Sleeping Dragon'

http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showthread.php?7133-Changhong-Tech-Support-Speaks-Softly-The-Ni-Fe-Sleeping-Dragon

Bill Blake

[Mike90250]

Mike,

.... I always wondered. Did you ever Listen to the actual Tech guys that work with the Ni-Fe batteries in China?

No, do you have a link to their comments, or can you paraphrase them here? Yesterday and today, added another 23 gallons to the bank to bring them up to the Full mark again.

[Sundetective]

Well, I'm sort of in the deep end here, with a large beutilityfree bank. I'll shortly be ordering the "carbonate test kit" and then I'll know if the fancy flip caps keep out the Co2, or if I have to change out electrolyte. They (and the solar) have been running the construction site full time, and charging the scissor lift weekends and afternoons. The breakers in the sub panel trip sometimes, as the compressor and saws start up, but the XW-6048 inverter has not glitched at all. There is hope now, that the plethora of GFI and ARC Fault Interrupters won't fault the XW, if all the contractors gear has not.
This has cycled my battery bank several times, when they leave the lift charging overnight, and it takes 2 days for the solar to bring the bank back up to full, so I have no doubt the "plates" are fully formed now.

The XW inverter and the Morningstar MPPT-60, can be programmed to completely and efficiently charge the batteries, and when I add the 2nd PV array, I'm sure that the Midnight line will be as flexible.

And I just have the mystery of why I'm using a lot of water in the batteries, with only a 20 minute absorb. I hope it's not Co2'd !

gear :
Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV || || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

Mike,

When it comes to charging your Ni-Fe batteries I know you have listened to Ni-Fe Salesman here in America
and you read and listened to Ni-Fe Sales literature from Changhong Batteries in China.

I always wondered. Did you ever Listen to the actual Tech guys that work with the Ni-Fe batteries in China?


Bill Blake