New Crown batteries badly sulfated

[lkruper]

Thanks. Those are the best prices I have seen but their core charge is high at $25. If you live in San Diego and have cores I doubt you can beat them.

I could get there in a couple hours, but don't have any cores. But that price is very attractive. The only batteries I have found that calculate out less than the 14+ cents per kWH for my power are these at this price and Costco batteries. And if I decide to switch to TOU I could charge the batteries for 1 cent / kWh which leaves me with a tiny bit of payback above and beyond fixed costs.

[hammick]

I found it online in San Diego -> http://deepcyclebatterystore.com/tro...z6oaAia78P8HAQ

Also, Costco at $83.99 uses Interstate 6v 207 AH which are just over 11 cents / kWH as they have 1220 cycles at 50%.

But who to believe?

Thanks. Those are the best prices I have seen but their core charge is high at $25. If you live in San Diego and have cores I doubt you can beat them.

[Willy T]

I wouldn't believe all the marketing hype. Trojan introduced the T2 Smart Carbon in 2012 with a lot of fanfare then in 2013 they quietly raised the Electrolyte fill strength to 1.280 because of some issue ( not disclosed ). My guess would be that there was a issue with capacity and voltage sag. Would I buy them ??, sure I would if I had a dealer that would take care of warranty problems without a hassle. They are what is hard to find.

Higher Specific Gravity is usually associated with

More capacity
Shorter life
Higher momentary discharge rates

Regardless what you see posted, Industrial / Traction batteries have always be a pain for off grid. There are just not enough sun hours to do the absorbs they need and the maintenance EQ's take to long to be efficient. The Generator run time will put a huge hole in your wallet to keep them functioning.

[lkruper]

Here are the calculations on the batteries I was quoted. Question is where in the world are you getting that pricing on the T-105RE. I would love to get a quote from them on the L16RE-A


Battery: Crown CR330
Cost: $197 (my actual cost not including $10 core charge and tax)
AH: 330ah (20hr rate)
Cycles @ 50%: 1200
6v x 330 x 0.50 x 1200 = 1188 kWh
$197 / 1188 = 16.5 cents per kWh

Battery: Trojan L16RE-B
Cost: $290 (my actual cost not including $10 core charge and tax)
AH: 370ah (20hr rate)
Cycles @ 50%: 1600
6v x 370 x 0.50 x 1600 = 1776 kWh
$290 / 1776 = 16.3 cents per kWh

Battery: Trojan L16RE-A
Cost: $243 (my actual cost not including $10 core charge and tax)
AH: 325ah (20hr rate)
Cycles @ 50%: 1600
6v x 325 x 0.50 x 1600 = 1560 kWh
$243 / 1560 = 15.5 cents per kWh

Battery: Trojan T105-RE
Cost: $145 (my actual cost not including $10 core charge and tax)
AH: 225ah (20hr rate)
Cycles @ 50%: 1600
6v x 225 x 0.50 x 1600 = 1080 kWh
$145 / 1080 = 13.4 cents per kWh

Battery: Trojan L16H
Cost: $283 (my actual cost not including $10 core charge and tax)
AH: 435ah (20hr rate)
Cycles @ 50%: 1200
6v x 435 x 0.50 x 1200 = 1566 kWh
$283 / 1566 = 18.07 cents per kWh

Battery: Trojan L16P
Cost: $256 (my actual cost not including $10 core charge and tax)
AH: 420ah (20hr rate)
Cycles @ 50%: 1200
6v x 420 x 0.50 x 1200 = 1512 kWh
$256 / 1512 = 16.9 cents per kWh

Battery: Trojan T145
Cost: $166 (my actual cost not including $10 core charge and tax)
AH: 260ah (20hr rate)
Cycles @ 50%: 1200
6v x 260 x 0.50 x 1200 = 936 kWh
$166 / 936 = 17.7 cents per kWh

I found it online in San Diego -> http://deepcyclebatterystore.com/tro...z6oaAia78P8HAQ

Also, Costco at $83.99 uses Interstate 6v 207 AH which are just over 11 cents / kWH as they have 1220 cycles at 50%.

But who to believe?

[hammick]

Would you mind adding them to what is below? T105-RE are only 11.57 per kWh.


Battery: T105-RE
Cost: $125
AH: 225
Cycles @ 50%: 1600
6V X 225AH X 0.5 X 1600 = 1080 kWh in Lifetime
$125 / 1080 = 11.57 cents / kWh

=====================================
Battery: IND9-6v
Cost: $839
AH: 434
Cycles @ 50%: 2800
6V X 434 X 0.50 X 2800 = 3645.6 kWh
$839 / 3645.6 = 23.01 cents / kWh

Here are the calculations on the batteries I was quoted. Question is where in the world are you getting that pricing on the T-105RE. I would love to get a quote from them on the L16RE-A


Battery: Crown CR330
Cost: $197 (my actual cost not including $10 core charge and tax)
AH: 330ah (20hr rate)
Cycles @ 50%: 1200
6v x 330 x 0.50 x 1200 = 1188 kWh
$197 / 1188 = 16.5 cents per kWh

Battery: Trojan L16RE-B
Cost: $290 (my actual cost not including $10 core charge and tax)
AH: 370ah (20hr rate)
Cycles @ 50%: 1600
6v x 370 x 0.50 x 1600 = 1776 kWh
$290 / 1776 = 16.3 cents per kWh

Battery: Trojan L16RE-A
Cost: $243 (my actual cost not including $10 core charge and tax)
AH: 325ah (20hr rate)
Cycles @ 50%: 1600
6v x 325 x 0.50 x 1600 = 1560 kWh
$243 / 1560 = 15.5 cents per kWh

Battery: Trojan T105-RE
Cost: $145 (my actual cost not including $10 core charge and tax)
AH: 225ah (20hr rate)
Cycles @ 50%: 1600
6v x 225 x 0.50 x 1600 = 1080 kWh
$145 / 1080 = 13.4 cents per kWh

Battery: Trojan L16H
Cost: $283 (my actual cost not including $10 core charge and tax)
AH: 435ah (20hr rate)
Cycles @ 50%: 1200
6v x 435 x 0.50 x 1200 = 1566 kWh
$283 / 1566 = 18.07 cents per kWh

Battery: Trojan L16P
Cost: $256 (my actual cost not including $10 core charge and tax)
AH: 420ah (20hr rate)
Cycles @ 50%: 1200
6v x 420 x 0.50 x 1200 = 1512 kWh
$256 / 1512 = 16.9 cents per kWh

Battery: Trojan T145
Cost: $166 (my actual cost not including $10 core charge and tax)
AH: 260ah (20hr rate)
Cycles @ 50%: 1200
6v x 260 x 0.50 x 1200 = 936 kWh
$166 / 936 = 17.7 cents per kWh

[lkruper]

Paul I am most likely going to get the Trojan L16RE batteries. Any reason to believe the Carbon in the Trojan RE batteries performs any better than the special paste in the Crown RE batteries?

Have you seen anything from actual owners of Trojan RE batteries that they don't sulfate as bad in partial SOC conditions?

I think the only way to know for sure how Crown RE compare to Trojan RE would be for both batteries to be tested the same way by a third party laboratory. It is unlikely that an actual owner of both would have enough experience to share to answer that question. Your last question is what is technically called "unfalsifiable".

That being said, I continue to wonder about the statistics for Trojan 105-RE and the IND9-6v. Just for kicks, how would your Crown batteries measure up based on their advertised cycles and cost? Would you mind adding them to what is below? T105-RE are only 11.57 per kWh.


Battery: T105-RE
Cost: $125
AH: 225
Cycles @ 50%: 1600
6V X 225AH X 0.5 X 1600 = 1080 kWh in Lifetime
$125 / 1080 = 11.57 cents / kWh

=====================================
Battery: IND9-6v
Cost: $839
AH: 434
Cycles @ 50%: 2800
6V X 434 X 0.50 X 2800 = 3645.6 kWh
$839 / 3645.6 = 23.01 cents / kWh

[hammick]

After you have read all the posts regarding these batteries you still lean on the Crown batteries? take this stupid advice from a semi-off grid fellow who suffer from battery sulfation and pain in the butt to put the batteries back to 100% SOC each cycle. TAKE THE TROJAN L16RE-A OR B. which ever fit your need. I wish I have your choice to pick my batteries now!

Paul I am most likely going to get the Trojan L16RE batteries. Any reason to believe the Carbon in the Trojan RE batteries performs any better than the special paste in the Crown RE batteries?

Have you seen anything from actual owners of Trojan RE batteries that they don't sulfate as bad in partial SOC conditions?

[paulcheung]

They are letting me return the batteries and either get fresh replacements or special order Trojan or Crown RE batteries.

If they change their tune on this I paid with Amex and will dispute the charge and drop the batteries off on the loading dock.

Looking into the cells with a flashlight the difference is night and day between the two July batteries and the six June batteries.

Nobody else was close to their price so I am not giving up on them. $243 for an L16RE-A or $289 for an L16RE-B

The Crown CR333 were $197

After you have read all the posts regarding these batteries you still lean on the Crown batteries? take this stupid advice from a semi-off grid fellow who suffer from battery sulfation and pain in the butt to put the batteries back to 100% SOC each cycle. TAKE THE TROJAN L16RE-A OR B. which ever fit your need. I wish I have your choice to pick my batteries now!

[paulcheung]

Well first things first. EQ is part of your normal routine right? I also assume when your received your batteries they were not sulfated, not have you allowed them to do that right? With me so far?

So what Crown is telling you is the LAST RESORT before you chit can them. Read the steps, Crown points this fact out that it might not work, and you are trying the last thing you can before disposing of them. You cannot hurt a dead sulfated battery right? So having said that you will not be doing the full discharge unless it is the last desperate act to revive them.

Does that help? You are living testimony of why you need a generator. As for individual cells say in a 6 volt battery, only you rhydrometer can tell you exactly what is going on, and I do not have to remind you how important it is.

Yes I understand you, Unfortunately when I got these batteries two years ago I don't have any knowledge about the batteries at all. the dealer has them sulfated and I don't know that I should EQ them before put them in service, also I don't know that I have to charge them back 100% SOC each every day. Later when I learn all these knowledge from you and the other in this forum I think it is a bit too late, I have 3 more batteries from the second series S530 develope unbalance cells in each batteries. after whole day charging with solar and grid, one cell on each batteries only go up to 1.250 SG. In the morning those cells are in the 1.150 and others are in 1.200 range.

So this procedure are the final do or dead action. I guess I will try to do the nornal EQ and see if these batteries can last a little longer.

Thank you.

[sensij]

Sensij can you explain what you mean by this? I assume you mean Balance of System but I don't have a good handle on that term. I have an eight circuit Outback combiner box with two circuits taken. With the Conext SW4048 and the XWMPPT-60 can't I just add six more panels, wiring and breakers to double the array wattage and charging power? I have plenty of roof space for more panels.

If I start spending any significant time on the property during fall and spring I am sure I will need more power.

Thanks.

Yes, you've pretty much understood BoS as I meant it. It sounds like you've got the roof space, combiner capacity, and charge controller. As you are sizing the wires and breakers, anything that will be a pain to change out later should probably be sized as though you were running the system closer to the max capacity of the CC.

Edit: Sunking's comments on IR cover the crux of what you will need to learn about this system. I've given you a way to try modeling what kind of charge current you will get in real life throughout the year, with somewhat better accuracy than basic rules of thumb will get you. Your choice of battery will dictate the upper limit of panel wattage, but I think you will be better off aiming too high than too low. It seems really hard to overcharge using PV and a good controller.

[Sunking]

Sensij can you explain what you mean by this?

Well I am not sensi but I know exactly what he means. FLA batteries have a charge limit both low and high. Generically they must have a minimum C/12 charge current to produce sufficient gassing to stir the electrolyte, and a maximum charge rate of C/8 to prevent over gassing and heating which leads to thermal runaway. You are running C/6 which is a little too high for most FLA batteries. All goes back to those dirty words Battery Internal Resistance.

Here is a good example with real products and numbers. The good ole Trojan T-105, a 6 volt 225 AH battery can only take maximum charge current of 35 amps or 225/35 = C/6.4 hour rate. Move up to say a Trojan IND9-6 is a 6 volt 464 AH battery. It can be charge as high as 230 amps or a C/2 rate. Why you ask? Already told you, Internal Resistance.

[hammick]

Beet you a dollar whoever you bought those batteries from will squeal and make a bunch of noise before they replace of refund your money. Crown are one of thehigher end batteries. To bad your dealer is a POS.

They are letting me return the batteries and either get fresh replacements or special order Trojan or Crown RE batteries.

If they change their tune on this I paid with Amex and will dispute the charge and drop the batteries off on the loading dock.

Looking into the cells with a flashlight the difference is night and day between the two July batteries and the six June batteries.

Nobody else was close to their price so I am not giving up on them. $243 for an L16RE-A or $289 for an L16RE-B

The Crown CR333 were $197

[hammick]

Even if you stay with what you've got you might want to size the BOS components to support getting up 3420 W, double your existing power, so you can easily add more panels later if needed. The 60 A CC you've got would prevent you from seriously overcharging (60 A = C/6.6), anyway.

Sensij can you explain what you mean by this? I assume you mean Balance of System but I don't have a good handle on that term. I have an eight circuit Outback combiner box with two circuits taken. With the Conext SW4048 and the XWMPPT-60 can't I just add six more panels, wiring and breakers to double the array wattage and charging power? I have plenty of roof space for more panels.

If I start spending any significant time on the property during fall and spring I am sure I will need more power.

Thanks.

[Sunking]

Looks like the RE Crown's are super expensive. I'm waiting on a quote for the Crown 325ah RE batteries but I anticipate they will be $60 more per battery than the Trojan L16RE-A 325ah. The Crown's have the watering eye and Water Miser caps which are nice but at that price difference I will go with the Trojan. I can get Water Miser caps for the Trojans and live without the watering eye. Crown claims 50 more cycles at 50% DOD. Both have a two year replacement warranty and after that Crown has three year pro-rated and Trojan has three years pro-rated..

OK now you are starting to use your head, think long term, and asking the right questions. Long Term. Initial price does not mean a lot other than possible mistake. FWIW Trojan has what they call Hydro-Link. Adding water can be done by a child it is so simple. Connect a 1 or 5 gallon of Distilled water, open a valve, wait until the water stops, close the valve and your done. Most of the major manufactures make a similar system at added cost.

So quit looking at initial cost because in the end those cheap batteries cost twice as much or more as the expensive ones. You get what you pay for. Now grow some skin and balls, I am not attacking you. It's the military in me. Now shut your trap and get to work.

[Sunking]

Great information, thanks!
One concern that I have is that the test conditions are specifically Industrial usage profiles, i.e. prompt recharging to full charge using a charger with unlimited grid power available. I am concerned (and I am sure you are too) about what will happen when recharging is deferred until the next day and takes place slowly from limited PV power.
What is your guess about how the batteries will (or do) react that based on your experience with those batteries?
Have you used them for RE or just for battery backup or daily operation with a generator?

OK valid concerns and questions.

Right up front, I do not own a Trojan Industrial battery. But I have spec'd them out on quite a few jobs the last two years in Remote Cell sites. So it is daily cycled, with 10 day autonomy, an dover sized panel system. Only thing I have heard and already know is they only do bi-weekly PM which includes a EQ on the genny. I switched from Rolls 5000 series to Trojan Ind and customers are very pleased. 2 years is a bit early to make a call, but I can say with certainty they out perform the Rolls with fewer issues. With Rolls and 2 years of service I guesstimate 3 to5% failures. Not at all high and Rolls has excellent warranty replacements as does Trojan. With that said no failures with the Trojans.

FWIW My next set will be Trojan Ind to replace my Trojan T-105RE. I use them in the ham shack with a 200 watt panel, and a Astron 70 amp power supply doing the real work. What I am driving at is the Trojan Ind is designed and made to run in a PSOC environment with only scheduled EQ to get them up to 100%.

The point I am trying to make is with the Trojan Ind, you can relax and not worry too much about getting to 100% every dang day. Just give them an EQ every couple of weeks and relax. They don't need to go to 100% after each use. In fact it can easily change the Solar user mind set. Turn the solar off for a few days and let them go down to 50%. That will significantly extend cycle life. Instead of each day being a cycle, now becomes every 3 days. So instead of 1500 cycles being 5 years is now 10 or 15 years.