Tesla announces "Powerwall" batteries

[Sunking]

They can always "LOAD SHED" and turn off electrical devices when there isn't enough to power them. I will bet we will be seeing that in both CA and Germany in the near future.

That does not solve the capacity problem and imports. As long as neighboring states fill the shortages, life goes on as usual of getting further behind until it hits breaking point with rolling blackouts. Sooner or later the neighboring states are going to run out of excess capacity and cut California off and limit supply. At that point California has no where to go but Dark.

[russ]

They can always "LOAD SHED" and turn off electrical devices when there isn't enough to power them. I will bet we will be seeing that in both CA and Germany in the near future.

They don't need all that power in the poorer sections of LA anyway - just cut that off and life goes on.

[SunEagle]

You are completely missing the point. Ontario has more than enough generation capacity to meet the needs. Good for Ontario. That has nothing to do with California problems where demands cannot be met as they import 30% of their power. Load shifting is not going to solve any problems, only more generating capacity will fix it.

They can always "LOAD SHED" and turn off electrical devices when there isn't enough to power them. I will bet we will be seeing that in both CA and Germany in the near future.

[Sunking]

Speaking of load shedding :

Riiiight. Glad people with your lack of foresight aren't running power grids...

Ontario has a big surplus of generation capacity.
Paying for gas plants to keep boilers hot is a waste, both in energy terms, and cost.

Yet, we have programs like "peak saver" that are incentives to shed load at peak:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/yP2pYpOmC6s

It's called "negawatts", it's far cheaper to reduce peak power generation requirements than to build spinning reserve.

You are completely missing the point. Ontario has more than enough generation capacity to meet the needs. Good for Ontario. That has nothing to do with California problems where demands cannot be met as they import 30% of their power. Load shifting is not going to solve any problems, only more generating capacity will fix it.

[donald]

Yep - no doubt about it - the fraction of 1% of power generated by solar has the utilities shaking in their boots and is going to save the world.

I'm glad you are finally becoming enlightened.

[SunEagle]

Yeah, I think a bidirectional grid is a lot more attractive than the utilities' idea of smart metering. Musk's grand plan for world domination has to be much more than a backup battery. So Powerwall becoming a storage network, as hinted at in the green tech media, makes a lot of sense. It also should allow for larger truly useful residential installs.

Anyone know the battery chemistry Tesla is using in the powerwall? I see discussions where lifopo4 is assumed, but I don't know where that information comes from. Is seems presumed that the new chemistry (if it is new) has lower charge rate but more cycles compared to EV batteries.

The batteries may be the same as being used in their EV or a new type that is destined to be manufactured in their mega factory. My guess is since they mention a "liquid thermal control" system (which is needed for their EV batteries) that is what the first release of the Powerwall will consist of.

[russ]

So Powerwall becoming a storage network, as hinted at in the green tech media, makes a lot of sense. It also should allow for larger truly useful residential installs.

Yep - no doubt about it - the fraction of 1% of power generated by solar has the utilities shaking in their boots and is going to save the world.

[donald]

Yeah, I think a bidirectional grid is a lot more attractive than the utilities' idea of smart metering. Musk's grand plan for world domination has to be much more than a backup battery. So Powerwall becoming a storage network, as hinted at in the green tech media, makes a lot of sense. It also should allow for larger truly useful residential installs.

Anyone know the battery chemistry Tesla is using in the powerwall? I see discussions where lifopo4 is assumed, but I don't know where that information comes from. Is seems presumed that the new chemistry (if it is new) has lower charge rate but more cycles compared to EV batteries.

[SunEagle]

Is it just the geek in me, or does this sound like the Borg? Resistance is futile.....

I can see that POCO control of someones house battery system will be met with a lot of resistance by people that hate "smart meters" or any type of control over their lives.

I am ok with using distributed energy storage to help level out the grid.

As long as I don't get absorbed and become part of the collective.

[russ]

Greentech Media - Isn't that the one where often the posts seem like they were outlined by some companies PR department? Eric does OK but St. John?

[Ian S]

Absolutely brilliant on the POCO POV. You the customer pay for all the equipment and maintenance collecting profits until the shoe drops and rolling Black Outs are normal every day life.

What a delightful word salad! Or as Russ would say: blather.

[russ]

Sorry if that was confusing. I often type near-nonsense.

Peak shaving is peak shaving. Just like generation, one should do it with cheap methods (load management) before expensive methods (batteries). So success stories showing how to combine the two methods would be interesting.

Brown outs seem to be the preferred method in many areas/countries.

[Sunking]

I expect that giving the utility the ability to add power from thousands of distributed points is highly efficient. I think the solar city inverters have already been designed to function well in such as system.

Absolutely brilliant on the POCO POV. You the customer pay for all the equipment and maintenance collecting profits until the shoe drops and rolling Black Outs are normal every day life.

[SmartElectric]

Speaking of load shedding :

That is not a Solution, that is a band-aide for a hemorrhage of a failed energy policy of not building enough capacity to meet demands.

Riiiight. Glad people with your lack of foresight aren't running power grids...

Ontario has a big surplus of generation capacity.
Paying for gas plants to keep boilers hot is a waste, both in energy terms, and cost.

Yet, we have programs like "peak saver" that are incentives to shed load at peak:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/yP2pYpOmC6s

It's called "negawatts", it's far cheaper to reduce peak power generation requirements than to build spinning reserve.

[SunEagle]

Utilizes had that ability too back in the 80's. They could turn off your air conditioner 15 minutes of every hour. In Oklahoma they called it the Good Cents Program. They still can if you are dumb enough to go along with it. Today it is called a Smart Meter that can turn off anything the POCO wants when they want if you allow it to happen.

My POCO has a similar type of load shed control. They give you a rebate of $4 to $5 per load for specific loads. I currently have that equipment on my pool pump and AC unit. I use to have it on my water heater but it was disconnected when I went with a solar thermal panel. Total rebate at that time was about $14/month.

MY POCO can "shed" my loads if they need to lower demand in our area which has occurred but as far as I can tell hasn't for a number of years.

There are a number of ways for the homeowner to automatically "turn off" specific loads based on TOD or Peak. You can spend a lot to do this or get a simple control unit with a timer. (I had those to turn my lights on and off to make it looks like someone is home).

Whatever you use turning the load off gets you the biggest savings. Switching to an energy storage system ends up costing you more unless the POCO kWh charges are very high.