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legionsolar out of San Jose figures out plug and play.

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  • Ampster
    replied
    Originally posted by jflorey2 View Post
    This is the big deal from my perspective. Plug-in grid tie inverters have an unsolvable safety problem. (I think it's what sank Orison's product.) You can wire it directly to a branch circuit, of course - which is the right way to do it. But then it needs to have that UL certification.
    I agree. Those companies are making misleading statements. I hope it doesn't hurt the reputation of the industry.

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  • Ampster
    replied
    Originally posted by jflorey2 View Post
    "They must be OK with it" "they must have known" "they never told me" - all very poor arguments IMO. The more likely solution is that they were solving other problems and didn't have the time/energy/desire to solve yours.
    It was a poor attempt at humor since @SunEagle earlier in the thread said that the Florida utilities were regularly monitoring users consumption. I don't have a problem to solve, but Mike sure thinks I do because I did not ask PG & E for permission to install a UL certified Hybrid inverter. That inverter does not backfeed the grid. I did pull a building permit.
    Last edited by Ampster; 11-10-2019, 11:00 PM.

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  • jflorey2
    replied
    Originally posted by Ampster View Post
    Why would I pull the meter? My building permit did not say I had to pull the meter. PG & E or SCE never told me I had to pull the meter. They must have known I was self generating because they saw my consumption go down. I have been doing this for over 5 years,
    "They must be OK with it" "they must have known" "they never told me" - all very poor arguments IMO. The more likely solution is that they were solving other problems and didn't have the time/energy/desire to solve yours.

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  • jflorey2
    replied
    Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post
    And plug-in (generating appliance) inverters are never allowed in houses, because local generation happens behind the breakers and the wires are not protected

    If you unplug the meter, there is now no grid and you can do as you please.
    This is the big deal from my perspective. Plug-in grid tie inverters have an unsolvable safety problem. (I think it's what sank Orison's product.) You can wire it directly to a branch circuit, of course - which is the right way to do it. But then it needs to have that UL certification.

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  • Ampster
    replied
    Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post
    If you pull the meter, or disconnect with an approved transfer switch, you can do as you please and the PoCo won't care.

    Or just go ahead with your plans of whatever and see what happens...

    Why would I pull the meter? My building permit did not say I had to pull the meter. PG & E or SCE never told me I had to pull the meter. They must have known I was self generating because they saw my consumption go down. I have been doing this for over 5 years, first with an Outback Radian (SCE) and then with and Outback Skybox (PG & E) both of which had building permits and were UL certified. They both have transfer switches but you should know that the schematics provided by Outback show that in almost all modes they are electrically connected to the service panel and use CTs and software to prevent back feeding the grid. It seems to work well for Outback and they got UL certification doing it that way. The only time the transfer switch disconnects from the service panel is when the grid is down and they continue to feed the critical loads panel. They do both have a grid tie mode but since I did not apply for a PTO I never ran them in grid tie mode. For those that are interested that is how almost all Hybrid Bimodal inverters are connected. Internally they take care of the islanding when the grid is down.

    BTW, I checked and in some states only a licensed electrician can pull a meter. There are 240 Volt un fused connectors back there.
    Last edited by Ampster; 11-10-2019, 03:43 PM.

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  • Mike90250
    replied
    If you pull the meter, or disconnect with an approved transfer switch, you can do as you please and the PoCo won't care.

    Or just go ahead with your plans of whatever and see what happens...


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  • Ampster
    replied
    Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post

    Wait on.......
    I don't expect to get that answer on this forum or any where else because I believe the answer is that there is no ability for the POCOs to regulate what I do behind the meter. I do think, as that knowledge becomes more widely shared, more people will install generators and battery backups partly stimulated by the recent power outages. Load departure will continue. That is what happened in Hawaii. I would not want to be a shareholder of a utility in California.

    In the meantime I will continue to enjoy the benefits of having a backup during power outages and a source of additional energy so all my grid tie generaton will get credited to my account.
    Last edited by Ampster; 11-10-2019, 12:55 PM.

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  • J.P.M.
    replied
    Originally posted by Ampster View Post

    Still waiting.
    Wait on, but while doing so see: "Russell's Teapot" for something to ponder.

    I'm out of this thread.

    Mike: Understood.

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  • Ampster
    replied
    Originally posted by Ampster View Post
    .....
    I am still waiting for somebody to give me the Civil Code section or any other law in any other state that restricts the right of a homeowner to generate their own electricity. I do understand that Municipal Utilities may have the ability to legislate such restrictions but those cases may be rare.
    Still waiting.

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  • Mike90250
    replied
    Legionsolar does not utilize a recognized/listed transfer switch. The power co wants a transfer switch. A transfer switch is a mechanical device, not a wireless software control.

    They appear to use a current transformer to sense direction and use a wireless signal to command inverters to shut down. This is so wrong on many levels, basic communications security and power line integrity. They are not pushing the envelope, they have torn it open, collected the $ from naive customers, and having a party, while ignorant consumer is clueless. This is the data the OP was wanting.

    You appear to have fallen into a condition where you are conflating your wishes with sales speak from unscrupulous vendors.
    * Plug-in inverters are not allowed in NEC.
    * Having a permit signed off for one, can only be done by mistake.
    * And they currently carry no UL cert.
    Using one, is unsafe for the homeowner and linemen.

    > People should know that in California as long as they install UL approved generating equipment, behind the meter in accordance with local building codes, in a safe manner, they may not need to asked permission of their Investor Owned Utility to operate such equipment as long as it is not connected to the the utility lines.

    And yet 300w GT inverters must connect to the utility line to boot up, and are therefore not permitted.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ampster
    replied
    Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post
    Your link explains it perfectly. When a temporary device is generating power, you cannot be connected to the pg& lines, a transfer switch is required.
    No disagreement there.
    However, I thought we were discussing PV & inverter generation, not portable or fixed fossil fuel generators.
    We have been talking about inverters behind the meter. You asked for a link and the only one I found talked about generators, It is silent about Inverters and I can only assume that concept is the same.But you can take the position that they are not allowed and I can take the position that they should be treated the same as generators in the absence of anything to the contrary. If these devices are behind the meter what legal distinction can a power company use to say one is okay and the other is not? The physics is the same whether it is fossil fuel or batteries/solar.
    You are free to walk your own rose colored path. I strongly suggest you not encourage others to accompany you, they can read and make up their own minds
    That is all I am expecting. People should know that in California as long as they install UL approved generating equipment, behind the meter in accordance with local building codes, in a safe manner, they may not need to asked permission of their Investor Owned Utility to operate such equipment as long as it is not connected to the the utility lines.This is not a rose colored path. It has been corroborated by two building officials from two different jurisdictions, and some PG & E linemen who worked in a vault while my system was operating. You are free to disagree but so far you and JPM have not offered any evidence to support a different conclusion. The readers of this forum are free to reach there own conclusion after investigating their circumstances. In no way would I recommend that anybody rely on any anonymous poster on the Internet to make any electrical design decision.
    And they reserve the right to inspect gear wired into your house:
    I have seen a lot of discussion on this issue with regard to sub panels and other equipment behind the meter. I have not seen one shred of evidence that suggests that any Investor Owned Utility has ever exercised jurisdiction over any equipment behind the meter. The only exceptions are by contract, in the case of a NEM agreement or a SGIP grant. If you have an example that would be useful for those that are trying to make up their minds.
    Have all additions to your house wiring inspected by your city or county building department.
    I have been saying the same thing during this whole discussion. There is no disagreement on that issue.
    When installation is complete, call PG&E to let us know about your back-up system. We will make a note in our records to remind our workers of your generator if they are working on an outage in your area. In some cases, PG&E line workers may ask to check your electric generator transfer switch for safety.
    That is exactly the conversation I had with the line workers when they were working on the vault at the end of my driveway. No issue there. They also said no permission was required.
    If you already have a permanently installed standby generator but you don't know if it's installed properly, call your local building inspector or a licensed contractor for help.
    That confirms what two different building departments told me. Don't bother the utility, make sure it passes code.
    You are responsible for any injuries or damage to your property, your neighbors' or PG&E's, from an improperly installed or operated generator.
    That is a fundamental aspect of Tort law in California. Nothing new there.

    I think we have both made our arguments for and against. Let's leave it at that or start a new thread to dive into it deeper id you want to continue this dialogue..
    The irony is that the Legionsolar website is bootstrapping off of the argument that I have been making but left out important details.. At least we can agree that the Legionsolar is pushing the envelope and ignoring two important issues which are building department approval and UL certification.

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  • Mike90250
    replied
    Your link explains it perfectly. When a temporary device is generating power, you cannot be connected to the pg& lines, a transfer switch is required.

    However, I thought we were discussing PV & inverter generation, not portable or fixed fossil fuel generators.

    You are free to walk your own rose colored path. I strongly suggest you not encourage others to accompany you, they can read and make up their own minds

    And they reserve the right to inspect gear wired into your house:

    A double-pole, double-throw transfer switch (see diagram A2) is the recommended device to keep your generator from backfeeding into PG&E's system. The switch also keeps PG&E's power from re-energizing your house wiring while your generator is running, protecting your generator, wiring and appliances from damage when your service is restored.
    Have all additions to your house wiring inspected by your city or county building department.
    When installation is complete, call PG&E to let us know about your back-up system. We will make a note in our records to remind our workers of your generator if they are working on an outage in your area. In some cases, PG&E line workers may ask to check your electric generator transfer switch for safety.
    If you already have a permanently installed standby generator but you don't know if it's installed properly, call your local building inspector or a licensed contractor for help.

    You are responsible for any injuries or damage to your property, your neighbors' or PG&E's, from an improperly installed or operated generator.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ampster
    replied
    Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post

    I have no idea, I have no desire to investigate it for you.
    For me? I know the answer. There are probably a lot of PG & E customers that have been inconvenienced by the power outages that would like a simple solution, whether it be a generator or battery. I agree the focus should be on a safe solution.
    I strongly suspect that if you have any Utility connection, you need their permission to connect any sort of device that generates power. They will decide if it meets their criteria, which is often UL 1741.
    Fair enough, you are free to express an unsubstantiated opinion and you have the power as a Moderator to ban anybody that disagrees with you. I do not chose to give the POCOs more power over my choices without verification.

    I have given my knowledge on this, asking me again will just make me grumpy.
    Since you are constaently asking, why don't you locate and publish the link that states it's OK, since it seems so meaningful to you.
    I have found a link from PG & E. . I have also asked two building officials in separate jurisdictions.
    https://www.pge.com/myhome/edusafety...tricgenerator/

    There is nothing in the above that suggests that permission is required. There are the usual caveats that warnings about connecting to or back feeding the PG & E lines. I know @J.P.M feels that generator is not descriptive of what an inverter does but my Permission To Operate refers to my Inverter as a generating device and I found nothing else referring to inverters.
    Last edited by Ampster; 11-09-2019, 08:38 PM.

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  • Mike90250
    replied
    Originally posted by Ampster View Post
    .....did not address the question I asked. That question is, do I need permission from any of the California Investor Owned Utilities to install UL1741 certified generating equipment behind my meter?.....
    I have no idea, I have no desire to investigate it for you.

    I strongly suspect that if you have any Utility connection, you need their permission to connect any sort of device that generates power. They will decide if it meets their criteria, which is often UL 1741.

    I have given my knowledge on this, asking me again will just make me grumpy.
    Since you are constantly asking, why don't you locate and publish the link that states it's OK, since it seems so meaningful to you.

    Leave a comment:


  • J.P.M.
    replied
    Originally posted by Ampster View Post
    I also agree with every thing Mike said, but he did not address the question I asked. That question is, do I need permission from any of the California Investor Owned Utilities to install UL1741 certified generating equipment behind my meter?
    It is a simple one word answer. From what @SunEagle and @J.P.M. have written previously their answer is NO.

    If the answer is yes, show me where it says that in the Civil Code or in any tarriff approved by the CPUC or any policy adopted by the CEC. For the purposes of this discussion I am excluding municipal Utilities or cooperatives not regulated by the CPUC. I am also assuming the a building permit has been issued by the local Authority Having Jurisdiction and the equipment has been certified in acordance with UL 1741.

    To be perfectly clear, I am in no way trying to trick Mike into endorsing what the Original Poster is trying to do. I think Legionsolar is being deceptive by calling their product an appliance and implying that one may not need a building permit because one can install it themselves.
    I never wrote no as the answer to that question.

    Until I find out otherwise, my opinion of what's one of perhaps workable answer to the question that's most likely to lead to the safest and most workable application based on my present state of knowledge is "It depends". That is, it depends on the particulars of the application for safety and also, from a practical and pragmatic outlook, what the AHJ thinks is the best conformance to the code (s)he's charged with enforcing.

    My wonder here is partly why are you seem, to me anyway, digging in your heels on verbiage - or the lack of it - in some written code(s) while at the same time mostly ignoring what's the original purpose and intent of most codes in the first place: Safety.

    Leave a comment:

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