Noob! Noob! Noob! - regarding the Grail - Where's the best deal on Cells please?

[Caliban]

Thanks! But why limit to 100 Watts?

I actually believed in the conspiracy theories regarding solar until recently. After much research I'm finding there are very good reasons for MOST of the regulations in place. It's actually mostly due to safety and accountability. I talked with my insurance company and they were fine with my homemade panels IF I didn't mount them directly on my roof or use them in ANY of the AC premises wiring (Grid Interconnection or off Grid AC). There are exceptions where I can run DC into my house but it must meet NEC Code. I believe the NEC even requires all components of a small DC system be listed by UL or equivalent, so there is no way to make that fly either. Anyways... I use all my homemade panels for small scale systems and experiments. All outside and not attached to my buildings. It is great fun and a wonderful way to learn.

I have used ML Solar with no problems or complaints. I ordered B Grade cells and that's exactly what I got. Only 4 cells out of 80 were bad. Just test for Amperage under a constant light source and the bad cells are obvious.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, for projects of 100 Watts or less DIY makes perfect sense to me. For anything large scale it is just insane and impossible to jump through all the hoops, and just not worth the trouble or the money.

Good Luck,
Green

Thank you for your post! Why the 100 Watt limit though?

[Caliban]

This turns out not to be the case

Sounds a little paranoid to me if you think people like russ are blocking others attempts to make their own solar panels. He is trying to explain that none of the single solar cell sellers have in the past and probably in the future provided Grade A units. They are selling seconds and scrap which costs them 5cents per watt and sells at 10 times that much.

If you think that people on eBay are reliable because no one has said anything bad about them then you are mistaken. Most of the time the feedback on eBay happens right after the product is received not after it has been in use for a while. By the time people realize they have purchased junk it is too late to go back and change your feedback so the seller looks as though they have a A++ rating but they really don't. People just stop buying from them but there are millions of others in the wings who want to save money and get lured into buying crap.

If you have done any research in the cost per watt of solar panels you will have seen that only 5 years ago you would need to pay close to $8/watt for a finished panel and today you can get them at and below $1/watt because the manufacturers are liquidating their warehouses.

Substantiate this statement with references and links. Put up or shut up. I spend 2 hours a week researching the net and see NOTHING to lend credence to your statement.

[green]

I'm not even going to bother answering this post directly. Other than to point out that DIY is indeed being blocked bog time by inspectors in order apparently to keep commercial installers in golf money. If you aren't going to contribute to this forum please post elsewhere.

I actually believed in the conspiracy theories regarding solar until recently. After much research I'm finding there are very good reasons for MOST of the regulations in place. It's actually mostly due to safety and accountability. I talked with my insurance company and they were fine with my homemade panels IF I didn't mount them directly on my roof or use them in ANY of the AC premises wiring (Grid Interconnection or off Grid AC). There are exceptions where I can run DC into my house but it must meet NEC Code. I believe the NEC even requires all components of a small DC system be listed by UL or equivalent, so there is no way to make that fly either. Anyways... I use all my homemade panels for small scale systems and experiments. All outside and not attached to my buildings. It is great fun and a wonderful way to learn.

I have used ML Solar with no problems or complaints. I ordered B Grade cells and that's exactly what I got. Only 4 cells out of 80 were bad. Just test for Amperage under a constant light source and the bad cells are obvious.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, for projects of 100 Watts or less DIY makes perfect sense to me. For anything large scale it is just insane and impossible to jump through all the hoops, and just not worth the trouble or the money.

Good Luck,
Green

[Caliban]

Get the meter!

Why can't you test them properly? Should I buy a Chinese multimeter instead?

Until guys start making reports regarding the number of cells they have to cull you should probably check in house by reference cell technique. Tab the cells, get a fixed light at a fixed distance, then take your meter and start comparison checks. When you find a cell you like save it as a reference. The issue of inferior isn't going to go away until people start doing reality checks and above all sharing actual research results instead of posting unsubstantiated rumor.

I have to wait to order my first batch so no results to post yet. I will however post something by mid April.

[SunEagle]

I'm not even going to bother answering this post directly. Other than to point out that DIY is indeed being blocked bog time by inspectors in order apparently to keep commercial installers in golf money. If you aren't going to contribute to this forum please post elsewhere.

Sounds a little paranoid to me if you think people like russ are blocking others attempts to make their own solar panels. He is trying to explain that none of the single solar cell sellers have in the past and probably in the future provided Grade A units. They are selling seconds and scrap which costs them 5cents per watt and sells at 10 times that much.

If you think that people on eBay are reliable because no one has said anything bad about them then you are mistaken. Most of the time the feedback on eBay happens right after the product is received not after it has been in use for a while. By the time people realize they have purchased junk it is too late to go back and change your feedback so the seller looks as though they have a A++ rating but they really don't. People just stop buying from them but there are millions of others in the wings who want to save money and get lured into buying crap.

If you have done any research in the cost per watt of solar panels you will have seen that only 5 years ago you would need to pay close to $8/watt for a finished panel and today you can get them at and below $1/watt because the manufacturers are liquidating their warehouses.

[Caliban]

Pre testing

I can second the ML Solar supplier on E bay as you have your choice of many cells- some are A, some B and then rough edge and then broken. You pick what you are willing to work with. I have already purchased 300 of the A grade cells and from my tests so far they are no different from what a factory would use. There are the Mono and Polycrystalline types so you have a lot of choices.
The supply is not fed so once these stocked cells are gone, then you will not see them again. In other words they are selling left over stock from a factory that has shut down. They do say they are American made cells but I saw a box with Shinsung on it which does not make me think they are American.

Okay so are we then to proceed as though the veracity of even the best of suppliers is to be taken lightly? This brings up the issue of pre-testing. Assuming one funky cell can pretty much ruin all that labor do you peruse the cells after tabbing just to be sure? It's all in house so checking against a reference or there's even a no illumination method (3 pages of math backing this one up) would seem prudent. If you've done this, how much culling have you had to do. It would be nice to hear from someone who's actually done the work instead of hearing some knee jerk opinion.

[Caliban]

THANKS! Yes! ML Solar does seem to predominate.

I use ML Solar Inc. Least expensive I've found so far and they offer both 6x6 and 3x6, A and B grade. If you buy the B Grade slightly chipped specials then you should save a bit of cash and they work just fine. They usually provide extras too. They specialize in all soalr equipment as well not just DIY solar cells. Check'em out and let me know what you think. I'm starting my 7th solar project useing their cells.

Thanks for your post. I'm still hunting sources but ML comes up in most searches.

[Caliban]

Obstructive, misleading, and just generally not helpful critiques. Just disregard.

No clarification needed if you read the forum posts. DIY is great for a hobby or science project but nothing more. To plan to supply a home with power from a DIY system you run into all sorts of problems:

1) UL (or equivalent) approval ain't gonna happen - without that approval your home owners insurance is normally no longer valid plus the utility will most likely not let you connect to the grid.

2) Life of the panels - even the big boy manufacturers with all the right equipment run into problems - you will be spending your money on something that will be scrap in a couple of years of time. Sealing the panel against moisture is quite difficult if you don't have factory type equipment.

3) In commercial panels cells of matched characteristics are used - something you can not manage without the same type of expensive equipment.

4) Very few people have the skill set or tools to make something like a PV panel.

This forum has one small section on DIY panels - 95% or more has nothing to do with the topic.

I don't even know who ML Solar is and could not care less. Having said that I doubt they are being honest in their representation of the cells they sell - like was noted about the packing

I'm not even going to bother answering this post directly. Other than to point out that DIY is indeed being blocked bog time by inspectors in order apparently to keep commercial installers in golf money. If you aren't going to contribute to this forum please post elsewhere.

[russ]

So, are you against building solar panels or are you just against ML Solar Inc? Just some clarification needed.

No clarification needed if you read the forum posts. DIY is great for a hobby or science project but nothing more. To plan to supply a home with power from a DIY system you run into all sorts of problems:

1) UL (or equivalent) approval ain't gonna happen - without that approval your home owners insurance is normally no longer valid plus the utility will most likely not let you connect to the grid.

2) Life of the panels - even the big boy manufacturers with all the right equipment run into problems - you will be spending your money on something that will be scrap in a couple of years of time. Sealing the panel against moisture is quite difficult if you don't have factory type equipment.

3) In commercial panels cells of matched characteristics are used - something you can not manage without the same type of expensive equipment.

4) Very few people have the skill set or tools to make something like a PV panel.

This forum has one small section on DIY panels - 95% or more has nothing to do with the topic.

I don't even know who ML Solar is and could not care less. Having said that I doubt they are being honest in their representation of the cells they sell - like was noted about the packing

[Solaron]

So, are you against building solar panels or are you just against ML Solar Inc? Just some clarification needed.

How much do you want to spend? To manufacture the equivalent panel to what commercial panels are you have to use the same equipment - if you have a few hundred - - - thousand laying around to spare then no problem.

[SkywaveTDR]

Well, I am still in the testing but the seller has good ratings so far and if there were major junk coming from him there would already be a lot of complaints.
He has already replaced so stuff that was missing so I don't see where he is trying to rip anyone off.
Discounting the many cells that are not made at the prime sources does not help the DIY type person. If everyone just went out and paid $20,000 for a system there would be no need for this forum nor would a lot of people be going Solar as it is just out of the price they could pay. How about some support?
People are going to go this way regardless.

[russ]

Why can't you test them properly? Should I buy a Chinese multimeter instead?

How much do you want to spend? To manufacture the equivalent panel to what commercial panels are you have to use the same equipment - if you have a few hundred - - - thousand laying around to spare then no problem.

[Solaron]

Why can't you test them properly? Should I buy a Chinese multimeter instead?

Except that you can't test them properly so you have no idea - you bought somebody's line of hokey on the internet friend - like you noted about the box.

[russ]

I can second the ML Solar supplier on E bay as you have your choice of many cells- some are A, some B and then rough edge and then broken. You pick what you are willing to work with. I have already purchased 300 of the A grade cells and from my tests so far they are no different from what a factory would use. There are the Mono and Polycrystalline types so you have a lot of choices.
The supply is not fed so once these stocked cells are gone, then you will not see them again. In other words they are selling left over stock from a factory that has shut down. They do say they are American made cells but I saw a box with Shinsung on it which does not make me think they are American.

Except that you can't test them properly so you have no idea - you bought somebody's line of hokey on the internet friend - like you noted about the box.

[SkywaveTDR]

I can second the ML Solar supplier on E bay as you have your choice of many cells- some are A, some B and then rough edge and then broken. You pick what you are willing to work with. I have already purchased 300 of the A grade cells and from my tests so far they are no different from what a factory would use. There are the Mono and Polycrystalline types so you have a lot of choices.
The supply is not fed so once these stocked cells are gone, then you will not see them again. In other words they are selling left over stock from a factory that has shut down. They do say they are American made cells but I saw a box with Shinsung on it which does not make me think they are American.