DIY solar panels

[tjames]

Several agents from the utility already agreed the regs are after the inverter. And that's the way I've read everything so far. Nothing says no.

I hear what you're saying, and this has helped me a lot so far, but outside of this forum, not one individual has said no.

I have a meeting in the AM with the electrical inspector.

[Sunking]

Several agents from the utility already agreed the regs are after the inverter.

From their POV yes they are correct, they have no jurisdiction what goes on before it and could care less as it is not their problem. Your local inspector will care.

[tjames]

I'll let ya know. I'll be asking for the location in the NEC where it specifically says that panels need to be third party lab tested. I have looked and not found this text. Absent that, I'll ask for his interpretation of grey area decision making. I've also contacted an engineering firm specializing in the electrical aspects of building code. I may pay them for a thorough interpretation of all of this. To me, all of the details and code demands are from the inverter on. Other than that NEC quote I posted, I have found no discussion regarding the panel manufacturing at all. Only that the specs be listed. But I'm still looking and listening.

Thanks, really. I'm very grateful that you would even take the time to reply.

[Sunking]

I'll be asking for the location in the NEC where it specifically says that panels need to be third party lab tested.

You will not find it specifically as it is defined in Chapter one article 100. If th eNEc tried to do what you suggest the code book would be a set of encyclopedias.

As I stated earlier Chapter 1, 2, 3, and 4 apply to ALL installations. Chaperts 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 are additional and/or modified requirements. Every article in chapters 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 have this exact same verbiage.

690.3 Other Articles. Wherever the requirements of other
articles of this Code and Article 690 differ, the requirements
of Article 690 shall apply and, if the system is operated in
parallel with a primary source(s) of electricity, the requirements
in 705.14, 705.16, 705.32, and 705.143 shall apply.
Exception: Solar photovoltaic systems, equipment, or wiring
installed in a hazardous (classified) location shall also comply
with the applicable portions of Articles 500 through 516.

Here is a modification that would normally be in Chapter 2 article 240:

690.8 Circuit Sizing and Current.
(A) Calculation of Maximum Circuit Current. The
maximum current for the specific circuit shall be calculated
in accordance with 690.8(A)(1) through (A)(4).

Now here is another that says refer to Chapter 2

690.43 Equipment Grounding.

Exposed non–currentcarrying
metal parts of module frames, equipment, and conductor
enclosures shall be grounded in accordance with
250.134 or 250.136(A) regardless of voltage. An equipment
grounding conductor between a PV array and other equipment
shall be required in accordance with 250.110.

So unless article 690 modifies anything in Chapters 1, 2, 3, and 4, it applies.

[Sunking]

I'll be asking for the location in the NEC where it specifically says that panels need to be third party lab tested.

You do not have to ask it is spelled out for you in Article 690.04

(D) Equipment.

Inverters, motor generators, photovoltaic
modules, photovoltaic panels, ac photovoltaic modules,
source-circuit combiners, and charge controllers intended
for use in photovoltaic power systems shall be identified
and listed for the application.

Could not be any more clear than that.

So if the POCO said nothing has to be listed and approved before the inverter is just plain Poppycock, or you misunderstood what they said. If that were true there would be no article 690 or any electrical codes. .

[tjames]

I'll ask him but when they're saying identified and listed that is referring to the schematic that you have to provide and list. That is not to say certify, test, or otherwise provide test documentation. In many areas of the NEC and the Net Metering application it asks to have the system components listed (on an application).

[tjames]

Met with the electrical inspector. He handles three counties and there a lot of solar going on, so he's pretty comfortable talking about this. He had the NEC and MRC flipping through while we spoke.

His opinion:

#1- If the panels are in a field (as I have planned) then you can build your own panels. He's sending me a letter to confirm. Same with a water wheel, wind turbine, or squirrels on wheels. It's the inverter and after that is relevant.

#2- In his understanding, the above changes if you attach panels to a house. In his understanding the Michigan Residential Code comes into play, which he recalled asks for a testing label. He could not find this requirement listed anywhere, and was not aware as to what standard the test would be measuring compliance to. A lab only tests to a standard. Like an ASTM standard, IEEE, etc. A lab can't just randomly run a few tests and apply a label saying "OK". Any lab test is only to verify conformity to a standard, and it is that exact (PV Panel) standard that no one can identify.

Even though I have a green light on DIY panels installed in a field array, I am continuing to drill into the the house attachment component. If there's no standard, then there's no test that could be performed, and so no test required.

[FloridaSun]

If there's no standard, then there's no test that could be performed, and so no test required.

Not that hard to find... took all of 30 seconds maybe

http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/offerings/industries/energy/renewable/photovoltaics/tests/?null

[tjames]

That's a great link and I'm grateful for it. Thank you.

It lists UL 1703 as a test they provide. Again, this is a private for-profit lab, and this is their test they offer for a fee.

In and of itself, this simply means a private lab (UL) has a standard they came up with to test something. This by itself does not mean that the NEC or MRC requires such a test, or that there is even a standard that code requires. I still cannot find such a standard.

As a side note, with the lab testing world, UL is known to me a big monopolizing bully. It is not in any way associated with the US govt, which consumers (not referring to the tradespeople here) often are led to believe.

[FloridaSun]

That's a great link and I'm grateful for it. It lists UL 1703 as a test they provide. Again, this is a private for-profit lab, and this is their test they offer for a fee.

In and of itself, this simply means a private lab (UL) has a standard they came up with to test something. This by itself does not mean that the NEC or MRC requires such a test, or that there is even a standard that code requires. I still cannot find such a standard.

As a side note, with the lab testing world, UL is known to me a big monopolizing bully. It is not in any way associated with the US govt, which consumers (not referring to the tradespeople here) often are led to believe.

If your AHJ can't find a standard and they approve of your DIY panels that's what counts for you, their approval. They may well approve a ground mount system with lack of safety standards.
hahahaha! 'big monopolizing bully' Look to your government for that. They will protect us all into the grave. UL would not exist without the guvment's demand. Of course UL wants a fee, just like your government wants it's taxes just for your existence in their jurisdiction.
You may consider UL a bully but they are THE standard recognized in USA by AHJs everywhere. I don't consider UL to be bully at all, worked with them in the past to have some of my products tested and found them all to be good people with the expertise, tools and facilities needed for accurate testing... which is why they are recognized as the standard for safety. They're easy to work with if you know what your doing.
If you are going the DIY route with solar panels you might be wise to consider their standards and build accordingly... if you can. Just how many panels will your proposed system employ anyway? All your posts about cutting corners, not needing approval... have you considered the time it will take you to build a decent supply of panels for a useful grid tie system?
good luck

[tjames]

I SO hear you regarding the gov influence...

Anywho- the only corner cutting I'm considering is assembling the panels. After that, M215 Enphase micro inverters and all the goodies.

And I may yet find that building panels is cost prohibitive. I just wanted the freedom to do so if I wanted.

Probably looking at 60 panels. Three rows, two high. Typical 3x5 panels with 6x6 cells. I'd likely start with one row.

[Sunking]

It lists UL 1703 as a test they provide. Again, this is a private for-profit lab, and this is their test they offer for a fee.

UL is a Non Profit scientific testing organization world recognized and every AHJ in the USA recognizes it as such no question about it.

Again all must equipment and material SHALL BE LISTED and Approved by the AHJ.

There two rules when working with the AHJ you must comply with no questions asked.

1. AHJ is always right.
2. When AHJ is incorrect refer to rule #1

From NEC again:

Labeled. Equipment or materials to which has been attached
a label, symbol, or other identifying mark of an
organization that is acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction
and concerned with product evaluation, that maintains
periodic inspection of production of labeled equipment
or materials, and by whose labeling the manufacturer
indicates compliance with appropriate standards or performance
in a specified manner.

Listed. Equipment, materials, or services included in a list
published by an organization that is acceptable to the authority
having jurisdiction and concerned with evaluation
of products or services, that maintains periodic inspection
of production of listed equipment or materials or periodic
evaluation of services, and whose listing states that either
the equipment, material, or service meets appropriate designated
standards or has been tested and found suitable for
a specified purpose.

Approved. Acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction.

Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ). An organization,
office, or individual responsible for enforcing the requirements
of a code or standard, or for approving equipment,
materials, an installation, or a procedure.

That means the AHJ has full authority to tell you and/or your contractor what is acceptable or not. Every AHJ recognizes UL. All others are a Crap Shoot.

[tjames]

I disagree with the UL comments. They are the MOST profitable private lab in the US. They charge 2-3 times what other labs charge. I can cite many examples. Other labs are not a crap shoot as all labs are simply testing to a standard. The Non-profit status i simply a tax thing. Now it's clearly a marketing thing, too. Don't assume any benevolence with this lab

No inspector can lawfully hold up a job because of a test report from a lab other than UL. Completely a win-able situation and I have myself been there before. If an accredited (NVLAP) facility tests a product to be in compliance with a particular building standard that is the end of the story.

If there are indeed gray areas then I can see the AHJ can make a call. My AHJ says go.



I do appreciate your quotes from the NEC.

[FloridaSun]

Anywho- the only corner cutting I'm considering is assembling the panels. After that, M215 Enphase micro inverters and all the goodies.
And I may yet find that building panels is cost prohibitive. I just wanted the freedom to do so if I wanted.
Probably looking at 60 panels. Three rows, two high. Typical 3x5 panels with 6x6 cells. I'd likely start with one row.

SIXTY! 30v panels? ...uh huh... so you want to waste all this time seeking a freedom you don't even need. Cost out the panels, all materials and consider the time you will spend in construction, that includes shipping costs and time to run around looking for glass, frame material, whatever you can find local. If you save any actual $ at all you will still be out a few months labor. Dunno bout you but I consider my time worth more than the ten cents an hour one might save building low quality and possibly unsafe panels.
Have at it. The world is full of nonsense.

[Sunking]

Anywho- the only corner cutting I'm considering is assembling the panels. After that, M215 Enphase micro inverters and all the goodies.

And I may yet find that building panels is cost prohibitive. I just wanted the freedom to do so if I wanted.

Probably looking at 60 panels. Three rows, two high. Typical 3x5 panels with 6x6 cells. I'd likely start with one row.

Good luck you are going to need it. You now have a new full time job and life long career building and repairing/replacing panels and all those permits and inspection fees for each addition.