WE Energies to Squash Distributed Renewables with their latest rate case.

[ChrisOlson]

kwilcox - we made it to Mackinac and we're not going anywhere today. 10 foot seas with 30 kt north wind thru the Straits. We want to have some fun, but not quite that much fun. I don't mind 20 foot seas on the ocean. But these 10 footers only 1.5 seconds apart on the Lakes will beat the pi$$ out of you in short order, and the boat is under water most of the time. Don't mind being cold, and don't mind being wet. But the prospect of being cold and wet at the same time is a good excuse to stay in port and go sightseeing.

[SunEagle]

kwilcox - we made it to Mackinac and we're not going anywhere today. 10 foot seas with 30 kt north wind thru the Straits. We want to have some fun, but not quite that much fun. I don't mind 20 foot seas on the ocean. But these 10 footers only 1.5 seconds apart on the Lakes will beat the pi$$ out of you in short order, and the boat is under water most of the time. Don't mind being cold, and don't mind being wet. But the prospect of being cold and wet at the same time is a good excuse to stay in port and go sightseeing.

Is there much to see in Mackinac?

I will wish for you a safe and dryer voyage when you set sail again.

[DanS26]

Hmmm... I just completed some interesting analysis of my TED data from beginning June to present. What I need is an energy storage system whose normal longest-life state is only partially charged and whose maximum storage capacity is about 300aH @ 48v greater than that. The highest daily net negative I've ever gone is 12.96 kWh.

Hate to put this thread back on track.....since you guys are having such fun....oh well.

Have you heard of this CA start up call JuiceBox? As I understand it, their product is to be rolled out in late 2015. I am interested since here in Indiana we are on a net billing arrangement also. The product is modular and Li ion based.

hTeaTeap://www.juiceboxsolar.com/home/

I see it as a way to use more of my produced energy internally and thus sell less excess power back at wholesale rates. I'm getting $.035 wholesale, you are lucky to get over $.04.

--Mod Note: I made the link unclickable just to keep them from getting search engine benefits out of us.

[SunEagle]

Hate to put this thread back on track.....since you guys are having such fun....oh well.

Have you heard of this CA start up call JuiceBox? As I understand it, their product is to be rolled out in late 2015. I am interested since here in Indiana we are on a net billing arrangement also. The product is modular and Li ion based.

hTeaTeap://www.juiceboxsolar.com/home/

I see it as a way to use more of my produced energy internally and thus sell less excess power back at wholesale rates. I'm getting $.035 wholesale, you are lucky to get over $.04.

Interesting. Too bad they don't even hint at what those things cost per kWh of storage capability. And the one that is shown is only 8.6 kWh which is a very small battery compared to what a house will use.

Since they don't advertise a cost I would put it up there in the area that only few can afford like the Porsche Cayenne Turbo EV for more than $100,000.

[russ]

No mention of who the money boys are?

[DanS26]

Interesting. Too bad they don't even hint at what those things cost per kWh of storage capability. And the one that is shown is only 8.6 kWh which is a very small battery compared to what a house will use.

Since they don't advertise a cost I would put it up there in the area that only few can afford like the Porsche Cayenne Turbo EV for more than $100,000.

Not a lot of data on the website, but as I understand the product is modular and stackable...thus you build what you need...or can afford. I don't think they are going to try to market this as a total off-grid product....cost shifting is their thing and short term power backup during grid failures.

Yes, I agree, cost is always a concern. Wonder if EM is involved somehow?

[SunEagle]

Not a lot of data on the website, but as I understand the product is modular and stackable...thus you build what you need...or can afford. I don't think they are going to try to market this as a total off-grid product....cost shifting is their thing and short term power backup during grid failures.

Yes, I agree, cost is always a concern. Wonder if EM is involved somehow?

It all depends on the cost of that JuiceBox but I can probably purchase a moderate sized Emerson UPS system for less.

[inetdog]

No mention of who the money boys are?

Nope, and no mention of which Li chemistry they are using. But at least they are not blatantly trolling for investors and distributors.

[DanS26]

It all depends on the cost of that JuiceBox but I can probably purchase a moderate sized Emerson UPS system for less.

I know very little about battery based systems and even less about UPS, but it does not appear that these products would compete against each other in any significant way at least initially.

If theJuiceBox is successful and cost effective it could change the UPS market for larger applications. The system management would have to be lightning (no pun intended) fast to effect uninterrupted service.

[SunEagle]

I know very little about battery based systems and even less about UPS, but it does not appear that these products would compete against each other in any significant way at least initially.

If theJuiceBox is successful and cost effective it could change the UPS market for larger applications. The system management would have to be lightning (no pun intended) fast to effect uninterrupted service.

And a UPS system is lightning fast and will last long enough until another power source (like a standby generator) is turned on.

There are a lot of continuous process systems out there the can't handle even a dip in voltage. They require a clean and continuous power supply to work or they shut down a stop production.

Before laptops (with batteries) were the norm most personal computers were desktops which required a UPS to keep the computer going for a brief time after an outage or disruption. This Juice Box is really just that and can be sized for the customers needs but will not last a long time unless you build a very big (and expensive) system and have a small electrical load.

I agree it may be a solution for homeowners that have a solar PV system to now have a way to "ride through" a short power outage but at what cost and what need. Most homes (unless there is a medical equipment involved) do not require an instantaneous power backup system because the loads are not critical.

[inetdog]

It may not make sense to us yet in terms of energy storage and cost, but the promoters of JuiceBox seem to be claiming that it is large enough to allow time shifting of power consumption from the grid, not just a short time UPS function.
I wish there were a lot more information there, especially since they are taking pre-orders already!

[SunEagle]

It may not make sense to us yet in terms of energy storage and cost, but the promoters of JuiceBox seem to be claiming that it is large enough to allow time shifting of power consumption from the grid, not just a short time UPS function.
I wish there were a lot more information there, especially since they are taking pre-orders already!

I see. It may give you the ability to use less Utility power during peak times. Or if the Utility pays you much less than what they charge you per kWh why not use your battery instead of using the Utility.

Still unless the cost is low I will follow the rule that the $/kWh generated from a battery system is still many times more than from the Utility.

[kwilcox]

kwilcox - we made it to Mackinac and we're not going anywhere today. 10 foot seas with 30 kt north wind thru the Straits. We want to have some fun, but not quite that much fun. I don't mind 20 foot seas on the ocean. But these 10 footers only 1.5 seconds apart on the Lakes will beat the pi$$ out of you in short order, and the boat is under water most of the time. Don't mind being cold, and don't mind being wet. But the prospect of being cold and wet at the same time is a good excuse to stay in port and go sightseeing.

Storm the castle & have one @ the Pink Pony for me then!

[DanS26]

I see. It may give you the ability to use less Utility power during peak times. Or if the Utility pays you much less than what they charge you per kWh why not use your battery instead of using the Utility.

Still unless the cost is low I will follow the rule that the $/kWh generated from a battery system is still many times more than from the Utility.

This is exactly my situation in Indiana and kwilcox in Wisconsin. Perfect fit for those of us on net billing schemes.

[kwilcox]

Hate to put this thread back on track.....since you guys are having such fun....oh well.

Have you heard of this CA start up call JuiceBox? As I understand it, their product is to be rolled out in late 2015. I am interested since here in Indiana we are on a net billing arrangement also. The product is modular and Li ion based.

I see it as a way to use more of my produced energy internally and thus sell less excess power back at wholesale rates. I'm getting $.035 wholesale, you are lucky to get over $.04.

hmmm... so this would be the battery system component for a SE Conext TX system running in AC coupled mode. I like it because according to SE's app note (located here),when the Conext is running AC coupled, all intelligent charge controlling for the storage system is offline. Power is just flowing back through the inverter. With a built in charge controller, this could be an ideal setup.

Still, would like to see more real stats on this. According to Sunking, typical LI technology is only good for about 2000 DOD cycles. That means it burns out in 5 years if charged/discharged daily.