Obama Administration Takes Action on Climate Change--Big Time

[billvon]

The fact that the earth is not a solid stone with holes in it that hold water. It is a dynamic structure and the tectonic plates float at an elevation that depends on the load on the lithosphere and asthenoshere. Geological isostasy is the principle of buoyancy where an object (continent) immersed in a liquid (ocean water) is buoyed with a force equal to the weight of the displaced liquid.

Of course. And indeed as ice melts, and the weight of that ice is removed from the surface, the crust rebounds to a degree. Not much, since rock is considerably denser than water. And not quickly; it takes millennia to change the shapes of continents. But that does happen.

It is why global sea levels have never changed significantly since the planet was born

That's not true at all. 15,000 years ago, as the last ice age was ending, sea level was 240 feet lower than it is now. You can find evidence of that all over the planet. As the ice melted, and the last ice age ended, seas rose to their current levels. This is because all that water was locked up in ice, and when it was released, sea level rose.

[SunEagle]

Of course. And indeed as ice melts, and the weight of that ice is removed from the surface, the crust rebounds to a degree. Not much, since rock is considerably denser than water. And not quickly; it takes millennia to change the shapes of continents. But that does happen.



That's not true at all. 15,000 years ago, as the last ice age was ending, sea level was 240 feet lower than it is now. You can find evidence of that all over the planet. As the ice melted, and the last ice age ended, seas rose to their current levels. This is because all that water was locked up in ice, and when it was released, sea level rose.

That is one theory and may be true for some areas. Another is that the land was beneath the sea at one time and through plate tectonics rose out of the water. That has been proven for a lot of areas near subduction zones.

So sea level change can and will happen due to both water level and land level changes. Since we only have had very precise measuring devices for a very short time there is no way of really knowing how much the shore line is changing due either of those two reasons.

[Sunking]

Actually, we've proven it's manmade. Well over 90% of climate scientists agree.

That is a flat out distortion of the facts Bill and you will not get away with it here. That 90% number is that scientist agree the climate has warmed slightly. The major majority of scientist do not think man has anything to do with it, or poses any threat to man.

One they they do agree on is if man by some chance has something to do with it, nothing can be done to stop it no matter how much money you throw at by robbing the people. It is just plain stupid.

[billvon]

That is one theory and may be true for some areas. Another is that the land was beneath the sea at one time and through plate tectonics rose out of the water.

That has definitely happened in places. But plate tectonics operate on much longer time scales than the rise and fall of sea levels due to glaciation and melting/thermal expansion. Sea levels change hundreds of feet over the course of tens of thousands of years; continents rise and fall hundreds of feet over millions.

So sea level change can and will happen due to both water level and land level changes. Since we only have had very precise measuring devices for a very short time there is no way of really knowing how much the shore line is changing due either of those two reasons.

We have pretty accurate proxy measurements going back tens of thousands of years, taken at many places over the globe. As an example, coral only forms at specific depths under the surface of the ocean, and we can carbon-date coral since it was formed by living creatures. (This is how coral atolls have formed over the past 20,000 years or so - the oceans rose, the coral kept growing, the island didn't.)

BTW you are probably aware of this but most expected sea level rise does not come from melting water. It comes from the thermal expansion of the ocean as it warms.

[billvon]

That is a flat out distortion of the facts Bill and you will not get away with it here. That 90% number is that scientist agree the climate has warmed slightly.

Nope. They are the scientists that agree that the climate is warming and humans are a cause of the warming.

The major majority of scientist do not think man has anything to do with it

Incorrect. At least three of these meta-studies have demonstrated that scientists agree that man HAS influenced the climate.

, or poses any threat to man.

Most such studies have not defined the term "threat" so agreed there.

One they they do agree on is if man by some chance has something to do with it, nothing can be done to stop it no matter how much money you throw at by robbing the people. It is just plain stupid.

Of course it can be stopped; it is just not worth doing what it would take. The wise man would trade off the predicted costs of AGW vs the costs of mitigation. Increase CAFE standards? Probably worth it for several reasons including AGW mitigation. Tightening regulation on coal power plants? Might make sense. Closing all coal power plants? Probably does not make sense.

[ChrisOlson]

Of course it can be stopped; it is just not worth doing what it would take.

What? Are you serious? You drink beer with Pastor Gore, or what?

The earth has gone thru ice ages about every 100,000 years and we're basically coming out of the last one. And the planet warms when that happens. You're saying mankind now has control over this? You have gone over the edge, man.

[ChrisOlson]

That has definitely happened in places. But plate tectonics operate on much longer time scales than the rise and fall of sea levels due to glaciation and melting/thermal expansion. Sea levels change hundreds of feet over the course of tens of thousands of years; continents rise and fall hundreds of feet over millions.

No, they don't. The weight of the ice on land mass during periods of the earth's glaciation causes the continent to be heavier. When the ice recedes it rebounds, what is known as isostatic adjustment. During warming and cooling periods in the earth's past the land mass change and what is called meltwater pulse phase has caused temporary changes in shorelines that last a few thousand years, but re-adjust very fast in the big picture.

The land we all live on was described by Sunking in a nutshell pretty well - like ice cubes floating in a glass of water. You can pour water into the glass from a pitcher and pulse phase causes temporary flooding of the ice cube's shorelines. But it rebounds very fast - as soon as the pulse phase is finished.

[JCP]

So far, Bill seems to be the one that comes up with interesting facts. By nature, I'm a curious skeptic, but Bill is more convincing. As for 2014 being a cold year, we all know that this means nothing as one cold year does not invalidate a century old trend. Now, if the next 10 years are cold, then that would be more interesting.

As for Russ, he's at it with his usual non sequitur and personal attacks.

The climate change skeptics on this thread were doing well, until they started bringing the UN in this discussion. Seriously? That was real funny. Let me guess, we should take down road sides because they're there to help the UN troops invade us... LOL

[Sunking]

The climate change skeptics on this thread were doing well, until they started bringing the UN in this discussion. Seriously?

That is where it started in 1990 with the release with IPCC AR1. Who said anything about the UN invading the US. They UN cannot break up a fist fight between two kids.

[ChrisOlson]

The climate change skeptics on this thread were doing well

There, so far, is no "climate change skeptics" here. We all agree on the FACT that the earth's climate changes drastically over time. What we don't agree on is whether the human race causes it, or that they can do anything about it. What we also don't agree on is there is some agencies and groups pushing the climate change agenda so they can make money off it. New taxes, carbon trading schemes, etc.. This does not lend credibility to the hokey that the general public is fed.

As I said before, you can no more change or control the climate on this planet than you can jump in a space ship and leave the place. And for somebody to push an agenda claiming they can reverse or stop warming, cooling, whatever - is pure ludicrous. That is called being vain. And mankind thruout history has been pretty good at that, thinking he is the center of everything, and has control over it somehow. He doesn't. He's just along for the ride on this rock and when he goes extinct (which will happen eventually) the rock will go on until one day when our sun we all depend on finally burns out. And there is nothing you can do to change any of it. Nothing. Mankind is totally, TOTALLY powerless in the face of Mother Nature. So totally powerless that if she whips up a little excitement like a tornado, hurricane or flood, all you can do is run and hide. You can't do a damn thing to stop it.

[JCP]

That is where it started in 1990 with the release with IPCC AR1. Who said anything about the UN invading the US. They UN cannot break up a fist fight between two kids.

Good, you had me worried.

I have a total layman understanding of the issue (at best). What the public/I hear is that temperatures have risen faster in the last 150 years than at any point in history and this correlates with increased carbon emission from human activity. Makes sense to me, at least on the face of it. What do you make of this?

[ChrisOlson]

I have a total layman understanding of the issue (at best). What the public/I hear is that temperatures have risen faster in the last 150 years than at any point in history and this correlates with increased carbon emission from human activity. Makes sense to me, at least on the face of it. What do you make of this?

In what history? The dinosaurs did not leave any records from their thermometer readings to compare to. Neither did early man up until maybe 100-200 years ago. The fact is, the human race has not been on the planet long enough to even know for sure. And science is not accurate enough to go back, say 100,000 years ago and say a temperature increase happened in "x" amount of time.

Humans do not know how it all works. It is all hypothesis with no hard data to prove anything. Unless you can produce global thermometer readings from more than 150 years ago, you can not detect changes of only 1.53°F (0.85°C) from 100,000 years ago, like there has been from 1880 to 2012. And trying to convince anybody that you can, causes you to lose all your credibility in the debate.

[JCP]

In what history? The dinosaurs did not leave any records from their thermometer readings to compare to. Neither did early man up until maybe 100-200 years ago. The fact is, the human race has not been on the planet long enough to even know for sure. And science is not accurate enough to go back, say 100,000 years ago and say a temperature increase happened in "x" amount of time.

Humans do not know how it all works. It is all hypothesis with no hard data to prove anything. Unless you can produce global thermometer readings from more than 150 years ago, you can not detect changes of only 1.53°F (0.85°C) from 100,000 years ago, like there has been from 1880 to 2012. And trying to convince anybody that you can, causes you to lose all your credibility in the debate.

Fair enough. Bill, what do you say to this?

[Sunking]

What do you make of this?

Increasing Solar Irradiance and extreme Sun Spot activity in the last 10 years. Something that is not being talked about for good reason is Mars is also heating up significantly higher than Earth's rate and the CO2 Ice caps are melting. To find the information you have to look for it, but it is out there to be found.

National Geographic
ABC News
NASA

[russ]

As for Russ, he's at it with his usual non sequitur and personal attacks. As compared to Reverend Bill's canned BS?

The climate change skeptics on this thread were doing well, until they started bringing the UN in this discussion.

Again, you twist words to meet your silly goals - I guess you really have no choice as your argument has no basis. The UN and it's useless agencies are the clowns pushing this mess.

No one is denying the climate is changing - how much and how fast plus the causes are the discussion in play. Sorry that the warmers and Al didn't prepare canned tidbits of BS for everyone to pass out.

It must really feel bad to have to face the fact that the world is not going to end in a ball of fire in the near future?