Solar Makes Sense With Highest Electric Rates in the Country (SDG&E)

[SunEagle]

We live in Salem, MA where there’s a cooperative buying model. Our electricity is .11 kWh. National Grid is our service provider and they have high rates, 120 percent more than the actual electricity we use. Our all in costs are .24 kWh. Does it make sense to go solar from a financial perspective?

You will have to run a program like PVwatts to see what system (depending on the kW size) will generate and see if what you are being charged per kWh and how much you use in a year. That way you can determine if you will get back what you invest in the system.

[GDunk]

We live in Salem, MA where there’s a cooperative buying model. Our electricity is .11 kWh. National Grid is our service provider and they have high rates, 120 percent more than the actual electricity we use. Our all in costs are .24 kWh. Does it make sense to go solar from a financial perspective?

[bcroe]

Solar is already cheaper than any other form of energy production. The problem is massive subsidies for oil and gas and nuclear power and the governments not restricting the costs of their pollution of the air and water. $81 billion a year in the USA alone for asthma caused by the power plants. In California public drinking water has become unavailable thanks to the massive amount of water used by the oil industry for its fracking operations. With nuclear there are massive amounts of energy required to mine and enrich uranium and the waste from the industry has a half life of centuries.

But solar is not as profitable for the energy resellers who make more money if they can charge more for the energy they import and distribute. We have captured agencies in the states' PUC that work for the industries and not for the public. The energy monopolies are threatened by having the public generate its own power on the rooftops of their homes and buildings so the push is for large scale solar and wind farms and building new power transmission lines for thousands of miles to the utility companies can add an upcharge to it for resale to customers. A monopoly is never efficient and "capitalists" strive to insure that they can create and maintain a monopoly and do whatever it takes to prevent a free market from existing.

90% of the world's wildlife on land and in the sea has disappeared in my lifetime. That should concern even the most curmudgeonly person. Sadly it does not.

I installed solar at my house and have a 99 mpg plug in hybrid and halted overseas travel and reduced my meat and dairy consumption by 95%. I did this because it was the right thing to do - what a concept.

Did you eliminate buying energy for heating and cooling? Bruce Roe

[SunEagle]

Solar is already cheaper than any other form of energy production. The problem is massive subsidies for oil and gas and nuclear power and the governments not restricting the costs of their pollution of the air and water. $81 billion a year in the USA alone for asthma caused by the power plants. In California public drinking water has become unavailable thanks to the massive amount of water used by the oil industry for its fracking operations. With nuclear there are massive amounts of energy required to mine and enrich uranium and the waste from the industry has a half life of centuries.

But solar is not as profitable for the energy resellers who make more money if they can charge more for the energy they import and distribute. We have captured agencies in the states' PUC that work for the industries and not for the public. The energy monopolies are threatened by having the public generate its own power on the rooftops of their homes and buildings so the push is for large scale solar and wind farms and building new power transmission lines for thousands of miles to the utility companies can add an upcharge to it for resale to customers. A monopoly is never efficient and "capitalists" strive to insure that they can create and maintain a monopoly and do whatever it takes to prevent a free market from existing.

90% of the world's wildlife on land and in the sea has disappeared in my lifetime. That should concern even the most curmudgeonly person. Sadly it does not.

I installed solar at my house and have a 99 mpg plug in hybrid and halted overseas travel and reduced my meat and dairy consumption by 95%. I did this because it was the right thing to do - what a concept.

I am happy you have found a way to live the way you want and still do not have issues with non Green conditions. If I was younger and had a family that thought the way you do then maybe I could reduce my electricity consumption. But as of now my wife insists we cool and heat the home to her desire which is fed by coal and natural gas power plants.

Oh and by the way a couple of the POCO's in Florida are planning on raising their rates by 10%. I can see a lot of poor people having to decide to either eat or stay comfortable this year.

For me I really wish I could lower my medical insurance which is about triple of what I spend on electricity. But to each their own desires and priorities.

[Calsun]

Solar is already cheaper than any other form of energy production. The problem is massive subsidies for oil and gas and nuclear power and the governments not restricting the costs of their pollution of the air and water. $81 billion a year in the USA alone for asthma caused by the power plants. In California public drinking water has become unavailable thanks to the massive amount of water used by the oil industry for its fracking operations. With nuclear there are massive amounts of energy required to mine and enrich uranium and the waste from the industry has a half life of centuries.

But solar is not as profitable for the energy resellers who make more money if they can charge more for the energy they import and distribute. We have captured agencies in the states' PUC that work for the industries and not for the public. The energy monopolies are threatened by having the public generate its own power on the rooftops of their homes and buildings so the push is for large scale solar and wind farms and building new power transmission lines for thousands of miles to the utility companies can add an upcharge to it for resale to customers. A monopoly is never efficient and "capitalists" strive to insure that they can create and maintain a monopoly and do whatever it takes to prevent a free market from existing.

90% of the world's wildlife on land and in the sea has disappeared in my lifetime. That should concern even the most curmudgeonly person. Sadly it does not.

I installed solar at my house and have a 99 mpg plug in hybrid and halted overseas travel and reduced my meat and dairy consumption by 95%. I did this because it was the right thing to do - what a concept.

[bcroe]

No problem, I was already thinking about space heaters to offset gas, maybe even adding an electric on-demand water heater inline and in front of my gas on demand water heater to reduce my natural gas bill.

So, I got 3 space heaters and little did I know I was going to dodge the natural gas bullet this winter. Last year I was sitting on around 85 therms Dec-Jan at $160, this year I'm going to be around half the therms, 43 or so, and $170 bill. Not prescient or anything, just lucky.

The typical energy equivalence is 1 THERM natural gas = 29.3 KWh.
So when you can buy those 29.3 KWH for less than a therm, electric
heat is money ahead. Lower that some for a less than 100% efficient
gas furnace.

A decade ago propane here went to double the price of KWh energy.
I did not buy any propane, now heating with solar powered elecric
heat pumps. Bruce Roe

[OCJ]

5 years ago, when I decided to install a solar rooftop system, that decision was easily made, given the fact that San Diego Gas & Electric Company had the highest rates in the Country. Nothing has changed. The cost of electricity for peak consumption during the summer months for TOU-EV2 was $0.68/kWh. This year that cost is increasing to $0.83/kWh. That represents a 20% increase in the cost. Not as bad as natural gas, with what is tantamount to a 100% increase since last January ($2.36/therm [1/2022] to $5.11/therm [1/2023]}.

It absolutely does make sense. I oversized for future EV and pool, so between the time I PTOd in June until I got an EV in August I generated around $800 in NEM credits. No problem, I was already thinking about space heaters to offset gas, maybe even adding an electric on-demand water heater inline and in front of my gas on demand water heater to reduce my natural gas bill.

So, I got 3 space heaters and little did I know I was going to dodge the natural gas bullet this winter. Last year I was sitting on around 85 therms Dec-Jan at $160, this year I'm going to be around half the therms, 43 or so, and $170 bill. Not prescient or anything, just lucky.

[vnatale]

That hourly rate per kWh is indeed bad or beyond bad. Indeed, it may be the highest hourly per kWh rate in the contiguous 48 states.
However, and while not trying to be an apologist for SDG & E, I see all the screaming about $0.80+/kWh rates and think a bit of explanation and clarification is it order.
A few examples of rates that are typical:

1.) There are 8,760 hours in a year. For all T.O.U. rates that exorbitant rate is only in effect for 153 days/year and then for 5 hours per day. That's 765 hours per year or about 8.7% of the time.
2.) The other hourly rates pretty much throughout all the SDG & E residential rate schedules (all 18 of them , about 6 of which are in common use), while draconian, have much lower per kWh rates. For example the non on-peak rates (that is off-peak and super off-peak rates) for the tariff covering users with a PV system and no EV's range between ~ $0.49 and ~$0.36/kWh for the other 91.3% of the year.
3.) One of the rate schedules (for those with EVs, TOU-5) even has an average super off-peak rate of $0.149/kWh for 3,266 hrs./yr. with the off-peak rate at $0.48129/kWh in the summer and $0.44775/kWh in the winter, but it does add a $16.00/mo. fee.

Point is, while the rates are terrible, and that's a fact, they are not as bad as writing or implying and so probably (IMO) leading folks to infer that they are uniformly in the $0.80+/kWh range.
They are not.
They're bad, but exaggerating how bad they are by only telling the worst of it is sort of like lying by omission.
It's bad enough without the need to make it worse. It reduces the credibility of the writer when found out.

To those who think the rates are too high, quit bitching and do something about it (like use less), or move to someplace like FL where rates are cheap.

Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

Thanks for the EXCELLENT clarification.

By the way in the Dummies book the author attempted to make the case (in a book probably written about 15 years ago) that all states would eventually (or soon) go to TOU rates. Not yet happened in Western Massachusetts for either commercial or residential rates. It's all the same flat rate no matter what time of day the electricity is consumed. Commercial does charge for demand while residential does not.

[J.P.M.]

$.83hWh??!!!! I thought the recent 20% increase in Western Massachusetts to $0.362 must have been among the highest in the country. NOT EVEN CLOSE!

That hourly rate per kWh is indeed bad or beyond bad. Indeed, it may be the highest hourly per kWh rate in the contiguous 48 states.
However, and while not trying to be an apologist for SDG & E, I see all the screaming about $0.80+/kWh rates and think a bit of explanation and clarification is it order.
A few examples of rates that are typical:

1.) There are 8,760 hours in a year. For all T.O.U. rates that exorbitant rate is only in effect for 153 days/year and then for 5 hours per day. That's 765 hours per year or about 8.7% of the time.
2.) The other hourly rates pretty much throughout all the SDG & E residential rate schedules (all 18 of them , about 6 of which are in common use), while draconian, have much lower per kWh rates. For example the non on-peak rates (that is off-peak and super off-peak rates) for the tariff covering users with a PV system and no EV's range between ~ $0.49 and ~$0.36/kWh for the other 91.3% of the year.
3.) One of the rate schedules (for those with EVs, TOU-5) even has an average super off-peak rate of $0.149/kWh for 3,266 hrs./yr. with the off-peak rate at $0.48129/kWh in the summer and $0.44775/kWh in the winter, but it does add a $16.00/mo. fee.

Point is, while the rates are terrible, and that's a fact, they are not as bad as writing or implying and so probably (IMO) leading folks to infer that they are uniformly in the $0.80+/kWh range.
They are not.
They're bad, but exaggerating how bad they are by only telling the worst of it is sort of like lying by omission.
It's bad enough without the need to make it worse. It reduces the credibility of the writer when found out.

To those who think the rates are too high, quit bitching and do something about it (like use less), or move to someplace like FL where rates are cheap.

Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

[vnatale]

5 years ago, when I decided to install a solar rooftop system, that decision was easily made, given the fact that San Diego Gas & Electric Company had the highest rates in the Country. Nothing has changed. The cost of electricity for peak consumption during the summer months for TOU-EV2 was $0.68/kWh. This year that cost is increasing to $0.83/kWh. That represents a 20% increase in the cost. Not as bad as natural gas, with what is tantamount to a 100% increase since last January ($2.36/therm [1/2022] to $5.11/therm [1/2023]}.

$.83hWh??!!!! I thought the recent 20% increase in Western Massachusetts to $0.362 must have been among the highest in the country. NOT EVEN CLOSE!

[J.P.M.]

Shifting the blame doesnt do any good for anyone. No country is free from blame including mine. If we dont change our mindsets, we are simply digging humanity's own grave.

I appreciate the sentiment and probably agree with some of it but it's an exercise in futility as it amounts to little more than naive and ignorant daydreaming.
Reason: Changing the collective planet mindset will involve changing human nature.
Good luck on that one.

Seems to me that according to those with little historical perspective and/or those who make money with a desire to derive power off human ignorance and fear have always portrayed the world as having one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel.

[davidcheok]

Yet both China and India burn more coal than any other nation. So while countries like Pakistan may suffer those are not the ones I am concerned of.

Shifting the blame doesnt do any good for anyone. No country is free from blame including mine. If we dont change our mindsets, we are simply digging humanity's own grave.

[SunEagle]

I mean that people in developed nations consume the most amount of power and contribute the most to global emissions but people in poor and developing countries are the ones who are worst affected. Case in point, Pakistan.

Yet both China and India burn more coal than any other nation. So while countries like Pakistan may suffer those are not the ones I am concerned of.

[davidcheok]

I have no idea what you are talking about but if you want to go green and don't care what it cost you then have at it.

I mean that people in developed nations consume the most amount of power and contribute the most to global emissions but people in poor and developing countries are the ones who are worst affected. Case in point, Pakistan.

[SunEagle]

Its ok. Its usually the people that use the least amount of energy that suffers first.. out of sight, out of mind.

I have no idea what you are talking about but if you want to go green and don't care what it cost you then have at it.