SDG&E latest EV-TOU-5 plan

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  • J.P.M.
    Solar Fanatic
    • Aug 2013
    • 14920

    #31
    Originally posted by SDnew
    Thanks all for your extensive knowledge sharing and valuable posts.

    I am new on this forum and want to clarify if my understanding is correct on the SDG&E true-up. Are you saying that, for NEM 2.0 DR-SES, true-up is effectively on net "revenue", not on net generation "kWH"? My question is prompted because everywhere I read in SDGE, it generally says something along the line of... if you generated more "energy" than you use, the excess is credited at wholesale rate; it doesn't say, if the credits for energy sent to grid is more than the cost for energy taken from the grid.
    No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm writing about has little to do with what SDG & E calls "excess generation", or how SDG & E pays customers for that excess at trueup.

    On "Net Surplus Compensation": What users are paid for at trueup is any excess kWh a system may generate over a true up period (~ 1 yr.) that is over and above what the user consumes for that same period (again,~ 1 year) multiplied by the prevailing, blended, average "wholesale" rate" for energy the POCO pays when buys from their sources and then transmits to their customers.

    To be clear, that is not what appears on your bill in the table "Net Energy Metering Summary", in the columns "NEM Credits", "Applied Credits" or "Remaining Credits". Those credits as they appear on your bill can only be used to offset usage and charges for that usage.

    You will never see that amount or anything close to it on a check from SDG & E. Any "Excess Generation" from SDG & E is currently paid at a rate of ~ $0.03/kWh or so of excess. The "credits" appearing on a bill reflect retail rates as they are in effect per the tariff the bill is working to and are something like an order of magnitude higher than the rate used for the "excess generation credit", which is the "wholesale rate" that SDG & E claims to pay for power that they buy.

    Mostly separate from the issue of "Net Surplus Generation" or "net Surplus Compensation" as SDG & E may define those terms:

    What I'm writing about in this thread is not about those things. What I'm writing about is a slightly different way of looking at how a residential PV system can be thought of as a "revenue generator" that produces a form of a product that has a certain value and specific use - electrical energy that can be thought of as a type of "revenue" - that can be thought of (in one sense) as the additional money that would be paid to the POCO if the "revenue generator" (more commonly understood to be a PV system) did not exist. That revenue cannot be thought of as money in your pocket to spend in other ways. You can only spend such "revenue" to offset your electric bill.

    Along with that is a slight change in thinking about how power goes to and from your home that is away from thinking in some bottom line lump, net sum of usage and incurred expense way to one that separates what a PV system might generate over a year or other period from what a user consumes over the same period before combing the two. Doing so can give additional information that can be useful for decision making with respect to PV acquisition and sizing, and also any plans opr considerations for such things as time shifting of loads and the PITA/$ saving tradeoffs.

    If, for system design and sizing purposes, a PV model's output can be defined as a reasonable definition of what a PV system might generate by hour over a period of, say, 1 year, the idea is that, using a model's output of a PV system, such as from something like PVWatts in conjunction with a TOU billing tariff that is a true TOU tariff (like DR-SES for SDG & E customers with PV systems), it's possible to combine generation by hour with the corresponding hourly charge from the POCO for that power generated from the tariff schedules which are a matter of public record and easily obtainable. Then, all such hourly revenue can be summed over a year.

    That can be done because all generation for any hour (actually any 15 minute period) is either consumed on site (if power consumption for that period exceeds PV generation for that period), or sent out to the grid (if PV system generation for that period exceeds consumption). Either way, the effect on the bill is the same per kWh generated whether it's consumed on site or sent to the grid.

    If a, say, 5kW system generates, say, 9,000 kWh/yr., the quantity of that generation and the hourly value of that generation summed over a year to offset an electric bill will be unaffected by how much electricity the residence that the system is connected to actually uses. Whether the household uses 10,000 kWh/yr, or 15,000 kWh/yr., the value of the 9,000 kWh/yr. that the PV system generates as a means of offsetting the resulting (and variable) electric bill will be unaffected. (and at this time in N. County San Diego, that quantity amounts to ~ $2,250/yr. or so for a 5 kW system billed under DR-SES). The bill will certainly be a larger $ amount for the higher usage, but the system generation and it's worth will be unaffected by use - provided the annual generation is less than annual consumption. Separate from that "Net Surplus Generation" scenario, the owner/user can then spend the $2,250 on as much or any pattern of usage of their choosing. The ~ $2,250 of generation is what it is regardless of usage, again provided that annual usage stays above generation, and again, provided the billing tariff is true TOU without tiers laid over it.

    When annual generation exceeds annual usage, that's when the "Net Excess Generation" payment with the much lower per kWh rates happen - One of the best ways to kill system cost effectiveness and pretty much how a lot of users shoot themselves in the foot - provided one big goal of the exercise is to provide the least cost way to supply electricity to a residence rather than get PV for its own sake or some other reason(s).

    Comment

    • SDnew
      Junior Member
      • Jul 2018
      • 11

      #32
      Originally posted by J.P.M.

      On "Net Surplus Compensation": What users are paid for at trueup is any excess kWh a system may generate over a true up period (~ 1 yr.) that is over and above what the user consumes for that same period (again,~ 1 year) multiplied by the prevailing, blended, average "wholesale" rate" for energy the POCO pays when buys from their sources and then transmits to their customers.

      ...
      Thanks again for the comprehensive explanation. However, it seems still that does not address my question, or I am not able to see it.

      Here is what SDGE website says about true up (https://www.sdge.com/residential/sav...s-generation):
      "... And if the number of kWhs you returned to the grid exceeds the number of kWhs you

      Comment

      • SDnew
        Junior Member
        • Jul 2018
        • 11

        #33
        Originally posted by SDnew

        Thanks again for the comprehensive explanation. However, it seems still that does not address my question, or I am not able to see it.

        Here is what SDGE website says about true up (https://www.sdge.com/residential/sav...ess-generation):
        "... And if the number of kWhs you returned to the grid exceeds the number of kWhs you
        [SIZE=12px][FONT=arial]Sorry, it seems most part of my previous post is lost. Reposting:

        Thanks again for the comprehensive explanation. However, it seems still that does not address my question, or I am not able to see it.


        Here is what SDGE website says about true up: "And if the number of kWhs you returned to the grid exceeds the number of kWhs you

        Comment

        • SDnew
          Junior Member
          • Jul 2018
          • 11

          #34
          Is there a length limit on what new users can post? My post has been truncated twice.

          Comment

          • SDnew
            Junior Member
            • Jul 2018
            • 11

            #35
            Say:
            - retail rate for peak hours: 50c/kwh
            - retail rate for off-peak : 25c/kwh
            - wholesale rate ~ 4c/kwh

            Suppose: for the whole year:
            - "net" energy from grid to home during peak (i.e., purchased kWHs): 1000kwh
            - "net" energy from home to grid during off-peak (i.e., returned kWHs): 2000kwh

            [FONT=interstate-light, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]In this example: "number of kWhs you returned to the grid exceeds the number of kWhs you

            Comment

            • SDnew
              Junior Member
              • Jul 2018
              • 11

              #36
              Ok, truncated again.. let me continue below:

              In this example: "number of kWhs you returned to the grid exceeds the number of kWhs you

              Comment

              • SDnew
                Junior Member
                • Jul 2018
                • 11

                #37
                Sorry again.. the post truncates exactly at the same point. So I guess there is some funny "character" in the pasted text from SDGE website. Trying with typing instead of copy-paste, hope it works this time.

                In this example: "number of kWhs you returned to the grid exceeds the number of kWhs you've purchased".

                Now: how is the true up done? (Again forget about NBC etc)
                Option 1: based on "net" kWH:
                - number of kWH you returned is higher. net access generation: 1000. wholesale credit : $40
                - 1000 kWH sent to grid off peak credit: $250
                - total credit $290
                - 1000 peak usage from grid charge: $500
                - customer pays: $210

                or, option 2: based on "revenue credits".
                - revenue for off peak kwh: 500
                - charge for on-peak usage: 500
                - customer pays : 0

                Is there a regulatory requirement that SGDE must do option 2? If not, obviously they would do option 2, and their website also seems to suggest so.

                Comment

                • J.P.M.
                  Solar Fanatic
                  • Aug 2013
                  • 14920

                  #38
                  Originally posted by SDnew

                  Thanks again for the comprehensive explanation. However, it seems still that does not address my question, or I am not able to see it.

                  Here is what SDGE website says about true up (https://www.sdge.com/residential/sav...s-generation):
                  "... And if the number of kWhs you returned to the grid exceeds the number of kWhs you
                  OK, If you are referring to the SDG & E blurb that's titled "How we compensate you for excess power generation", here's the deal: Say, over the course of 12 billing periods you use 10,000 kWh and your PV system produces 9,000 kWh over the same period. As a result of your use and your PV system's generation, at trueup for those 12 billing periods you will have overgenerated by (10,000 kWh - 9,000 kWh) = I,000 kWh. That is what SDG & E calls excess generation. You will be compensated for that excess generation at a rate of ~ $0.033/kWh according to the latest SDG & E information. To that end, SDG & E will cut you a check for (1,000 kWh) * (~ $0.033/kWh) = ~ $33.00.

                  There is also another possible credit called an RC credit, but unless you're a commercial user or have a real boatload of overgeneration, you won' t make any money off it, much less be able to understand the hoops you'll need to jump through.

                  If there is more to your question, either I don't see it, or you are not stating your question in a way I'm able to understand.

                  Comment

                  • SDnew
                    Junior Member
                    • Jul 2018
                    • 11

                    #39
                    Originally posted by J.P.M.

                    If there is more to your question, either I don't see it, or you are not stating your question in a way I'm able to understand.
                    So, are you saying that in my example above, option 1 is more closer to reality than option 2? If that is the case, all the BS that the PV installers say about "produce a bit more during the day to compensate for more expensive evening usage" is just that: BS. You would have to produce not just a bit, but "much more" as the summer retail peak is more than 12x the SDGE compensation rate for "excess generation". Is this correct understanding?

                    Then coming back to your modeling of ~$453/kw system revenue per year model, that is only applicable as long as your net excess generation (in absolute kWH diff, not in revenue diff) is 0 or less.

                    As soon as you produce even a kWH more than you need over 1 year, the revenue is much less.If a, say, 5kW system generates, say, 9,000 kWh/yr., the quantity of that generation and the hourly value of that generation summed over a year to offset an electric bill will be unaffected by how much electricity the residence that the system is connected to actually uses.
                    is not entirely correct then.

                    Comment

                    • J.P.M.
                      Solar Fanatic
                      • Aug 2013
                      • 14920

                      #40
                      Originally posted by SDnew

                      So, are you saying that in my example above, option 1 is more closer to reality than option 2? If that is the case, all the BS that the PV installers say about "produce a bit more during the day to compensate for more expensive evening usage" is just that: BS. You would have to produce not just a bit, but "much more" as the summer retail peak is more than 12x the SDGE compensation rate for "excess generation". Is this correct understanding?

                      Then coming back to your modeling of ~$453/kw system revenue per year model, that is only applicable as long as your net excess generation (in absolute kWH diff, not in revenue diff) is 0 or less.

                      is not entirely correct then.
                      It appears to me that you are thoroughly confused and also don't yet understand how NEM works. Forget about anything I wrote for now. Until you get a better understanding of the basics, my stuff will only lead you to more confusion. For now, learn the difference between an NEM credit and a surplus generation credit and then how NEM works with respect to TOU. Holler back when you get that digested and I'll continue. Until then we're wasting each other's time.

                      Comment

                      • SDnew
                        Junior Member
                        • Jul 2018
                        • 11

                        #41
                        Originally posted by J.P.M.

                        It appears to me that you are thoroughly confused and also don't yet understand how NEM works. Forget about anything I wrote for now. Until you get a better understanding of the basics, my stuff will only lead you to more confusion. For now, learn the difference between an NEM credit and a surplus generation credit and then how NEM works with respect to TOU. Holler back when you get that digested and I'll continue. Until then we're wasting each other's time.
                        Maybe. But if you could - just tell me option 1 or 2 (which you seem to be avoiding). That's it. (I think I know what I am asking ).

                        Comment

                        • J.P.M.
                          Solar Fanatic
                          • Aug 2013
                          • 14920

                          #42
                          Originally posted by SDnew

                          Maybe. But if you could - just tell me option 1 or 2 (which you seem to be avoiding). That's it. (I think I know what I am asking ).
                          If it seems I'm avoiding answers, consider that I don't understand what you're asking that I haven't already addressed. The best answer to your latest query I can come up with - because I'm still not sure I understand your questions: At trueup, at this time, you will be paid ~ $0.033 for every kWh that is generated in excess of your usage over the prior 12 billing periods, or apply an equal $ credit to the next trueup period. That's it.

                          I'd respectfully suggest you give SDG & E a call on Mon. and ask them to explain compensation for excess generation. Maybe I'm missing something in the way you're asking the questions that they will recognize. I've found them to be quite helpful, even if it takes a climb of a couple of rungs on the ladder of authority.

                          Since it looks like I can't explain to you my understanding of how SDG & E handles NEM. So, I'm going to stop trying. It ain't worth the aggravation to me.

                          Comment

                          • SDnew
                            Junior Member
                            • Jul 2018
                            • 11

                            #43
                            Originally posted by J.P.M.
                            At trueup, at this time, you will be paid ~ $0.033 for every kWh that is generated in excess of your usage over the prior 12 billing periods, or apply an equal $ credit to the next trueup period. That's it.
                            Ok. Sorry to kill your valuable time. All I am looking to understand is what is the "usage over the prior 12 billing periods" in SDGE books? Is 2kWH "usage" at off peak hour when the rate is say X same as 1kWH usage at peak hour when the rate is 2X? I know this is same for regular TOU plans. But is that same for NEM when "number of kWhs you returned to the grid exceeds the number of kWhs you've purchased"?

                            Therefore I gave you the two examples with numbers to help me figure how they will calculate. This is as important in the system dimensioning as your other extensive explanations of how things work. While I fully appreciate your desire to be very accurate, I don't care how many decimal digits you are accurate to for the price of each unit, either retail or wholesale as long as the algorithm is clear.

                            Originally posted by J.P.M.
                            Since it looks like I can't explain to you my understanding of how SDG & E handles NEM. So, I'm going to stop trying. It ain't worth the aggravation to me.
                            Ok. Thanks anyway. Anybody else, could you help how the NEM credits are "limited"? If you sent 2000kWH at off peak to grid and used 1000kWH at peak from grid, would that cancel out (assuming retail rate 2X for peak and forgetting about NBC etc.), or would they rather say the retail credit is limited to the amount of kWH you use, hence 1000kWH is calculated at retail rate, while other 1000 kWH is "access generation" and it gets only wholesale credits?

                            Comment

                            • J.P.M.
                              Solar Fanatic
                              • Aug 2013
                              • 14920

                              #44
                              Originally posted by SDnew
                              Sorry to kill your valuable time.
                              My time is no more or less valuable than yours or anyone's.

                              IMO only, you'll waste less of yours and those you ask questions of if you first make the effort to inform yourself of how SDG & E's tariffs and NEM billing work, try to find your own answers and exhaust those methods before you ask, to the point of demanding, to be spoon fed.

                              I try to be helpful, but I expect some effort on the part of the questioner. I'm not a babysitter or an enabler of lazy, self centered, entitled behavior.

                              At this time it looks to me like you're lacking information about the basics of NEM and how it works that is necessary to have before you can ask meaningful questions about those things. After you self actualize and do some of the necessary homework to understand the basics - including asking SDG & E who is the ultimate source for your questions. Any questions you then ask here will probably be better and more informed. Thorough your investigations, you will probably even answer some of your own questions. For those questions that remain, any answers you get here or from other sources will likely be more complete and accurate, with the added bonus that, through your self added knowledge, you may actually get answers you can understand.

                              Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

                              Comment

                              • SDnew
                                Junior Member
                                • Jul 2018
                                • 11

                                #45
                                Originally posted by J.P.M.

                                My time is no more or less valuable than yours or anyone's.

                                IMO only, you'll waste less of yours and those you ask questions of if you first make the effort to inform yourself of how SDG & E's tariffs and NEM billing work, try to find your own answers and exhaust those methods before you ask, to the point of demanding, to be spoon fed.

                                I try to be helpful, but I expect some effort on the part of the questioner. I'm not a babysitter or an enabler of lazy, self centered, entitled behavior.

                                At this time it looks to me like you're lacking information about the basics of NEM and how it works that is necessary to have before you can ask meaningful questions about those things. After you self actualize and do some of the necessary homework to understand the basics - including asking SDG & E who is the ultimate source for your questions. Any questions you then ask here will probably be better and more informed. Thorough your investigations, you will probably even answer some of your own questions. For those questions that remain, any answers you get here or from other sources will likely be more complete and accurate, with the added bonus that, through your self added knowledge, you may actually get answers you can understand.

                                Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.
                                Ok. Scrapped everything because that is a long rambling BS instead of any help. Obviously you lack basic decency to try to answer politely and to the point. I wouldn't have asked you if the SDGE website was not nuclear. Instead of being so full of yourself, perhaps you could've given a link to the "basics" and that would actually help. Anyway at this point I am convinced that either you are not willing to help but enjoy continue throwing BS, or you lack capability to understand my basic question. The more I think about it, it seems latter is more likely. This discussion is not worth my energy and time.

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