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  • SDG&E latest EV-TOU-5 plan

    I just got notified in the Tesla forums about the new SDG&E EV-TOU-5 plan.

    I recently (last month) switched to EV-TOU-2 since I got the EV and am in the process of getting a PV system installed.

    https://www.sdge.com/residential/pri...-vehicle-plans

    It looks like this plan is new as of this month, and it is a really great deal for super-off-peak at about 9cents/KW versus 22cents, if you pay $16 monthly fee.

    I've ran the numbers in my spreadsheet with the EV-TOU-5 plan and with 250KW charging monthly for the EV in super off peak (and not considering other use could fall in super-off-peak esp. on weekends and holidays):

    DR summer: $206.05
    DR winter: $175.08

    EV-TOU-2 summer: $175.70
    EV-TOU-2 winter: $137.71

    EV-TOU-5 summer: $155.44
    EV-TOU-5 winter: $117.45

    Since summer is 5 months long, the net rebates over DR rate for a year is:
    EV-TOU-2 : $413.32
    EV-TOU-5 : $656.43

    That's quite a saving, and also I just got the EV climate credit approved for $500 (!) instead of the usual $200.

    I have yet to call SDG&E (tomorrow) but if I somehow am able to change to EV-TOU-5 and I've got $500 credit (assuming it is going on till 2020), my yearly for next 3 years would be $1600-$500 = $1100

    That really pushes my PV ROI from 4.5 years to under 7.5 years (OK I know the rates are going to increase, and the EV credit might phase out anytime), but the bottom line it has made me pause and reconsider doing solar next year before 2019 30% credit starts phasing out..

    Thoughts? Anything I'm missing? Happy to share my spreadsheet in case anyone think it would be useful..

    And one side question if I do go solar now, how does the $500 EV climate credit works? Do they write me a check at the true up or that $500 will keep getting rolled until I do get a positive bill?
    Attached Files
    Last edited by jgd108; 07-05-2018, 09:29 PM.

  • #2
    Pay attention to the TOU time periods and their rates - a majority of your solar production would be off-peak, and then you get to pay the .53/kWh in the evening. You will need to produce double the kWh in solar to offset each kWh used in the evening (in summer anyways).

    The EV climate credit will stay as a credit on your bill until used - or you can call and they will send you a check. I've also heard they can transfer the credit to your methane account if you desire for some reason.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by philips View Post
      Pay attention to the TOU time periods and their rates - a majority of your solar production would be off-peak, and then you get to pay the .53/kWh in the evening. You will need to produce double the kWh in solar to offset each kWh used in the evening (in summer anyways).

      The EV climate credit will stay as a credit on your bill until used - or you can call and they will send you a check. I've also heard they can transfer the credit to your methane account if you desire for some reason.
      Thanks for the quick reply philips!

      Yes those new peak hours are too bad for solar (4-9pm) but so far this month I'm able to stay under 2kWh and in my calcs for summer I accounted for 10 days of running AC (tomorrow is 100+!).
      So technically I'm still producing weekdays at 28 cents and charging at 22 cents, and who knows maybe I will produce a few kWh at peak to offset my peak usage too (I checked PVWatts and it did show some production after 4pm but it was based on Long Beach climate data for a year so I can't know the numbers for sure and no way to graph it easily for those 5 hours during those 5 months).

      Comment


      • #4
        Since you don't have solar, as long as you are using more than 115 kWh during the super off peak period (most likely), then the new tariff is probably better for you - if I'm reading it all correctly. These changing rate plans do make it difficult to size a PV system.

        Comment


        • #5
          Oh and take the $500 EV credit out of however you are doing your ROI calcs for PV as that is cold hard cash to you (stolen by California from everyone else).

          Comment


          • #6
            Scum. Peak usage is 6pm, holding it till 9pm is just a thumb in the eye to solar.
            EV rates should be midnight to 6am, at the system lull.

            http://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/default.aspx
            Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
            || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
            || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

            solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
            gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

            Comment


            • #7
              Thanks, glad it's a payment and not a credit that will be rolled on forever.
              Yes I'll be using 250+ kWh each month in super off peak so I'm good there (probably makes sense only for large battery EVs).
              Fingers crossed I can switch to that rate.. EV-TOU-2 is a 1-year lock in, but honestly this is the same plan with better rates!
              Nice graph Mike90250 !

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by philips View Post
                Since you don't have solar, as long as you are using more than 115 kWh during the super off peak period (most likely), then the new tariff is probably better for you - if I'm reading it all correctly. These changing rate plans do make it difficult to size a PV system.
                As long as there isn't a tier rate laid over the T.O.U. rates - and DR-SES and the new TOU -EV - 5 plans do not - the PV sizing is actually a lot simpler.

                The neat trick is to realize that without tier pricing added to a tariff schedule (some are, some aren't), a system's hourly production and hourly POCO per kWh rate product summed over 8,760 hours is a constant - and separate and independent from how much electricity is used and how much any user pays for that use. Generation will either be used and thus off-setting usage and thus T.O.U. bill, or the excess credited at the T.O.U. rate.

                Without that tier pricing added to the tariff, which, in effect restores some features of tierd and not TOU billing, and with a couple of common assumptions - that a system is not oversized in terms of yearly production or for any true up period, and net metering is in effect, and that a model such as PVWatts is used that has hourly output, it's a rather straightforward (but does make for a big spreadsheet) to get a reasonable estimate of annual system production per STC kW and multiply each hour's output by the per kWh rate for the corresponding hours and sum all 8,760 hours in a year. The result will be how much bill offset is likely per installed STC kW per year. To the degree the model used represents some reasonable form of reality, it's a pretty straight forward method, at least in concept.

                So, for example, in N. County San Diego, using DR-SES tariff, and PVWatts, Miramar data, a 180 az., 20 deg. tilt system will offset about $453 /yr. per installed STC kW of PV. Different orientations will have different per STC kW generation offset $$'s

                Now, lets say that I'm on T.O.U using DR-SES as my tariff since I don't have an EV yet. Also, lets say that my annual bill is $1,895 based on my use pattern and I use 6,500 kWh/yr.

                That means, and without the adjustments for minimum billing or CA climate credit, to offset my entire bill, and at current usage and use pattern(s), and current rates, I'll need a system of a bit less than $1,895/($453/kW) = 4.18 kW.

                BTW, and maybe a bit off topic, the 1,720 kWh/yr. per STC kW that, according to PV Watts, the system might generate will mean it produces revenue at the rate of ($453 per STC kW per year)/(1,720 kWh/yr.) = $0.263372/kWh. Note that my cost per kWh paid to SGDG & E from above is ($1,895 per yr.)/(6,500 kWh/yr.) = $0.29154/kWh. That disparity is mostly the result of the realignment of the T.O.U. times that took place about 18 months ago as a result of AB 327. Also the reason why I'm staying on old fashioned tiered rates for as long as possible, or at least/until I get an EV (The Porsche mission - e has caught my attention).

                FWIW, the new TOU - EV - 5 rate's times are identical to the DR - SES times. There may be some disadvantage to using TOU - EV - 5 if an owner is already on DR-SES.

                Reason: Some of the super off peak times (weekends, holidays and some daytime weekday hours in March and April), are during some pretty peak generation times - up until 2 P.M. The super off peak rates of TOU - EV - 5 being much less than DR - SES may cause more generation revenue loss during those pretty prime generation hours.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Wow J.P.M. that was an awesome detailed reply!
                  I had to re-read it a few times but it contains great info.

                  Will ask my follow-up questions inline to make sure I understood:

                  Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post

                  As long as there isn't a tier rate laid over the T.O.U. rates - and DR-SES and the new TOU -EV - 5 plans do not - the PV sizing is actually a lot simpler.

                  The neat trick is to realize that without tier pricing added to a tariff schedule (some are, some aren't), a system's hourly production and hourly POCO per kWh rate product summed over 8,760 hours is a constant - and separate and independent from how much electricity is used and how much any user pays for that use. Generation will either be used and thus off-setting usage and thus T.O.U. bill, or the excess credited at the T.O.U. rate.
                  I feel PV sizing was easier before but I forgot about the tiered pricing, although you would think most would fall into Tier 1 right due to their net kWh being close to zero?
                  SDG&E's EV-TOU-X rates are not tiered luckily since that's the main reason I moved away from DR rates which penalizes EV charging.

                  Just to make sure I got it correct, say I produced for $2000 worth of electricity, and consumed $1700 worth of electricity (using the TOU schedule).
                  My understanding is I won't get a $300 check at "true up" but rather a wholesale rate of those extra kWh correct?
                  If so what is exactly that wholesale rate? I hear "2-3 cents / kWh" is that even true? Where to find?

                  Basically I would mostly produce at off peak (and a little at peak), and on weekends/holidays mostly at super off peak (and off peak).
                  And a big chunk of my use would be overnight at super off peak for EV charging.

                  Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post
                  Without that tier pricing added to the tariff, which, in effect restores some features of tierd and not TOU billing, and with a couple of common assumptions - that a system is not oversized in terms of yearly production or for any true up period, and net metering is in effect, and that a model such as PVWatts is used that has hourly output, it's a rather straightforward (but does make for a big spreadsheet) to get a reasonable estimate of annual system production per STC kW and multiply each hour's output by the per kWh rate for the corresponding hours and sum all 8,760 hours in a year. The result will be how much bill offset is likely per installed STC kW per year. To the degree the model used represents some reasonable form of reality, it's a pretty straight forward method, at least in concept.
                  Agreed, big spreadsheet for sure! Not sure how to sum up all the hours together easily.
                  Also this is using data for a city nearby and historical weather data, performance, etc. so many variables that will change year over year!!


                  Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post
                  So, for example, in N. County San Diego, using DR-SES tariff, and PVWatts, Miramar data, a 180 az., 20 deg. tilt system will offset about $453 /yr. per installed STC kW of PV. Different orientations will have different per STC kW generation offset $$'s

                  Now, lets say that I'm on T.O.U using DR-SES as my tariff since I don't have an EV yet. Also, lets say that my annual bill is $1,895 based on my use pattern and I use 6,500 kWh/yr.

                  That means, and without the adjustments for minimum billing or CA climate credit, to offset my entire bill, and at current usage and use pattern(s), and current rates, I'll need a system of a bit less than $1,895/($453/kW) = 4.18 kW.

                  BTW, and maybe a bit off topic, the 1,720 kWh/yr. per STC kW that, according to PV Watts, the system might generate will mean it produces revenue at the rate of ($453 per STC kW per year)/(1,720 kWh/yr.) = $0.263372/kWh. Note that my cost per kWh paid to SGDG & E from above is ($1,895 per yr.)/(6,500 kWh/yr.) = $0.29154/kWh. That disparity is mostly the result of the realignment of the T.O.U. times that took place about 18 months ago as a result of AB 327. Also the reason why I'm staying on old fashioned tiered rates for as long as possible, or at least/until I get an EV (The Porsche mission - e has caught my attention).
                  Miramar data, nice. I used to live in Scripps Ranch and biked to the lake many times.

                  And Porsche E, that's a beast. Hopefully they make it soon :P

                  Changing rates further complicate calculations for the first few years, let alone many years..

                  So my system with the rates increasing might actually generate more credits over time hopefully.. ha!

                  Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post

                  FWIW, the new TOU - EV - 5 rate's times are identical to the DR - SES times. There may be some disadvantage to using TOU - EV - 5 if an owner is already on DR-SES.

                  Reason: Some of the super off peak times (weekends, holidays and some daytime weekday hours in March and April), are during some pretty peak generation times - up until 2 P.M. The super off peak rates of TOU - EV - 5 being much less than DR - SES may cause more generation revenue loss during those pretty prime generation hours.
                  You made an excellent point about getting less money on weekends / holidays when going to EV-TOU-5!
                  I did output the PVwatts and looked at a few days in June, measured the number of watts made before 2pm for the super off peak on holidays and weekends, and came to about $140 more credit with EV-TOU-2 than EV-TOU-5. The way I see EV-TOU-5 winning is if I charge a lot more, but on the flip side if I travel for a month or only fly to clients I pay a $16 flat fee and get less credits on my generation.
                  Wow, again this makes it nearly impossible to predict! I doubt I will be able to educate my neighbor going solar too now !

                  Thanks.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post
                    Scum. Peak usage is 6pm, holding it till 9pm is just a thumb in the eye to solar.
                    EV rates should be midnight to 6am, at the system lull.

                    http://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/default.aspx
                    In spite of what it may seem, and there may be some truth to the sharp stick in PV user's eye opinion, but I suspect the POCO's may consider it more serendipitous than any conscious, nefarious design that system demand seems to peak about the time PV production is rolling off. Seems to me that demand time/shape, including later in the afternoon into evening was around long before PV. If so, I could make an argument that consumers again have the means to control their destinies by shifting usage patterns, but won't.

                    Wait if/until EV's maybe take off big time and everyone and their relative starts using power like crazy from midnite til 6 A.M. or so, making that the new equivalant of the current 4 P.M - 9 P.M. peak time. Wonder if everyone with PV (among others) will bitch when the super off peak times then shift to mid afternoon when usage is relatively light compared to nite time heavy charging use, but sunshine is abundant, making TOU reimbursement rates worse than they are now.

                    Seems to me like the POCOs are missing the boat again by not getting in on the ground floor and controlling the battery business now, before it too takes off and they're sucking hind tit like they claim to be doing with PV/net metering.

                    I can't help but wonder how things might have been different if the POCO's had known about the Photoelectric effect and paid Einstein off. But then, If my aunt had had balls, she'd have been my uncle.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Geez! Is there a college course you can take to understand all these California rate plans? I'm so fortunate I don't have to deal with all of that. I feel sorry for the folks that do.
                      Dave W. Gilbert AZ
                      6.63kW grid-tie owner

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post

                        As long as there isn't a tier rate laid over the T.O.U. rates - and DR-SES and the new TOU -EV - 5 plans do not - the PV sizing is actually a lot simpler.
                        I was speaking in regards to sizing a PV system to a particular rate plan, but since the rate plans are moving targets, this is difficult. Agreed, that analyzing a particular plan on non-tiered TOU is much simpler than the TOU plans with tiers like SCE.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post
                          Scum. Peak usage is 6pm, holding it till 9pm is just a thumb in the eye to solar.
                          EV rates should be midnight to 6am, at the system lull.

                          http://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/default.aspx
                          You really need to look at the Net Demand chart, as that is the demand on the traditional dispatchable power plants (natural gas peaker, hydro, and imports) - peak is closer to 8pm. Behind the meter solar is a partial cause of the later curve, but the majority of the cause is the large utility scale solar plants. If you look at the supply from utility PV and match that up with net demand you will see without it, peak would be in the early afternoon.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The first EV-TOU-2 bill is in and if that month was any indication here is the breakdown:

                            KWH:
                            53 on peak
                            146 off peak
                            371 super off peak

                            570 total

                            DR schedule: $199.40
                            EV-TOU-2: $154.87 (matches the actual bill)
                            EV-TOU-5: $119.32

                            Wow!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              OMG, what a nightmare. Is it even worth it? Just burn some dinosaurs and ferns and be done with it. When it is all said and done, how much $0.00 do you pay per mile electric versus gasoline? And what was your initial capital investment in order to make that happen? How many years/decades will it take to break even?

                              While I'm all for helping the environment (and would love to be able to afford a fully autonomous (Level 5) Tesla myself -- once they are available.) I don't see how you could be saving any money, let alone all of the the headaches and aggravation.

                              Last time I checked, here in NJ where my electric is only ~14 cents per kWh (all in -- generation and transmission) 24x7, switching to a Bolt would only net me a ~$1500-2000 per year savings (after subtracting the cost of electric from the cost of gas -- I drive ~30+K miles/yr). And I'd have to buy a new $35K Bolt to do it. While I have a big PV system (~12.2 kW DC) it only meets about 80-90 percent of my current usage. So any additional load from an EV would be at $0.14 per kWh. So, best case, that's like a ~15 year break even on a car that might last 10yrs.

                              I know gas is more expensive in CA, but it's only like a dollar / dollar-fifty more per gallon. Given the traffic are you really driving >100 miles per day?

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