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  • Stop Smart Meters ?

    I happened to read a post at stopsmartmeters.org that stated the following:

    "If you have solar with a smart meter, the smart meter tracks the energy you give back to the grid and you get paid the wholesale price for it.

    If you have solar with an analog meter it simply runs backwards and you get full

  • #2
    Probably not correct in the sense it's simplistic B.S. and so misleading, but the particulars depend on the NEM setup with any particular POCO.

    And, the question of any choice with respect to using/change out to a smart meter or not may be a moot point anyway. Many/Most NEM agreements require a smart meter as an interface.

    Read your NEM agreement for particulars as it may relate to your situation/site.

    Sounds like a site with an agenda. I've seen whack job sites that ascribe privacy invasion feats to smart meters that are akin to those of potty cams.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by rmk9785e View Post
      I happened to read a post at stopsmartmeters.org that stated the following:

      "If you have solar with a smart meter, the smart meter tracks the energy you give back to the grid and you get paid the wholesale price for it.

      If you have solar with an analog meter it simply runs backwards and you get full
      We have 'smart meters' with our Power Company. It gives the PoCo hard-wired communication with each meter. So every hour the PoCo can log how much power has been consumed. Also every day when there is a break in the power distribution lines, within the hour the PoCo knows exactly which meters have lost communications, so it saves them a lot of time in dispatching repair crews.

      We bought a new property in November'16. The PoCo was notified of the transfer a month in advance, and yet come January'17 they still had not transferred the bill to my name. They acted like they had never transferred a bill from one person to another person before. When we were finally able to get a hold of a PoCo clerk who had a slight clue of how to do his job, he was able to go back through the daily logs of power consumption, and he shifted the account as of the date of sale, even though it was months later. So there is a benefit to 'smart metering'.

      Also if your PoCo decides to use Time-Of-Usage billing, a Smart-Meter can allow them to log your power consumption hourly, to figure out the TOU billing. My PoCo does not use TOU billing.

      Our PoCo does not pay any home-owner for power put onto the grid. They log how much power went on the grid, and they give out 'credits' for the power. Then you are taxed for that power.
      4400w, Midnite Classic 150 charge-controller.

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      • #4
        I agree with JPM.

        Some people are just scared of smart meters and will post anything that they can which indicate there is a danger or increased costs to the customer.

        IMO if you want to be connected to the grid then get use to smart meters. They will be a way of life and will actually help the POCO keep providing power to their customers by providing them data to properly balance the grid which is constantly changing.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by rmk9785e View Post
          If you have solar with an analog meter, it simply runs backwards and you get full (value?)
          Someone in the US has solar and still has an old analog meter?

          Dave W. Gilbert AZ
          6.63kW grid-tie owner

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          • #6
            Originally posted by azdave View Post
            Someone in the US has solar and still has an old analog meter?
            I could see it if you were not net-metering

            I have grid power coming to my house [to a breaker, so I have it available as an 'Aux-Input' to my E-panel]. Our PoCo swapped all meters over to 'smart-meters' a few years ago. but these are not RF transmitting meters, they communicate via digital signals on the power lines. I had no idea they were smart meters until I went and had a conversation with the PoCo about them. They look the same as an analog meter.
            4400w, Midnite Classic 150 charge-controller.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by azdave View Post
              Someone in the US has solar and still has an old analog meter?
              I did for a short time.


              from the OP:
              If you have solar with a smart meter, the smart meter tracks the energy you give back to the grid and you get paid the wholesale price for it.

              If you have solar with an analog meter it simply runs backwards and you get full
              Some analog meters do *NOT* run backwards.
              Mine did.
              But there are numerous anecdotes of meters that do not.

              My meter was changed to a smart meter shortly after permission to operate from the POCO.
              I am credited full price for the energy I send to the grid.
              As has been pointed out, each POCO/location has their own rules. The rules in my city aren't the same as the next city over. Much less the next state over or another country.
              And the rules change from time to time (ex some people near me are grandfathered under the old NEM, someone doing a new install would be under NEM2.0)

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              • #8
                Some analog meters when they "run backwards" actually add to your charges rather than subtract from them. The dial may run backwards, but the billing still goes "forward". Most solar interconnects require a special "bi-directional" meter that specifically measures the power going each way.

                And about "smart" meters - there is so much B.S. out there on the web about them it is amazing.
                BSEE, R11, NABCEP, >1200kW installed

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by solarix View Post
                  Some analog meters when they "run backwards" actually add to your charges rather than subtract from them. The dial may run backwards, but the billing still goes "forward". Most solar interconnects require a special "bi-directional" meter that specifically measures the power going each way.
                  I got possession of my old spinner meter when going to net metering, it had a reversing gear
                  so it only counted UP no matter which way power is flowing. I put in some glue to defeat the
                  reversing gear, plan to use it as a true bidirectional here. Bruce Roe
                  Last edited by bcroe; 02-01-2018, 10:30 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by solarix View Post
                    Some analog meters when they "run backwards" actually add to your charges rather than subtract from them. The dial may run backwards, but the billing still goes "forward".
                    If you mean the faster spinning disk going backwards, while the counters go forwards - those are definitely reported to happen - (in the next post bcroe says he has one that behaved that way.)

                    I wouldn't say that those "run backwards". I would say that those do NOT run backwards. As opposed to my old meter which did run backwards.
                    The disk (which you can see easily spinning) ran backwards AND the dials counting kwh ran backwards.
                    And since the kwh counted down while producing (and up at night), it was the same as the digital meter I have now - the billing was tied directly to the net kwh consumed. No other way to do the billing since the counters (which could only be physically read) only showed the net consumption.

                    There are meters that do not run backwards - the fast spinning disk runs backwards, but they only count up.

                    But there are meters that run backwards as well - the fast spinning disk runs backwards AND when it's going in reverse the counters are going in reverse too.

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                    • #11
                      I did have an analog meter with PV for quite a few years and yes it did run backwards. I also got occasional visits from the fraud unit of my POCO as grid tied PV was new (I think my permit number was 38) and PV tended to show up as meter fraud due to negative production. I also got hand prepared bills for a couple of years as the billing software couldn't deal with net metering. The utility bills have a visual bar chart for monthly usage for the last year by month. During the summer when I produced more than I used, the program would default to maximum daily monthly usage rate and the bar chart would show very heavy monthly usage. The analog meter was swapped at some point with a "dumb" digital meter that would run backwards.I overproduce power big time in the summer to cover my winter heating and usually carry a surplus forward year to year so that meter showed a negative total for a few years. Eventually the utility did put in dual channel meter and the bills now reflect my gross sales and gross purchases. The state charges a tax on all purchased power even on power that I put into the grid so they needed the two channels. The meters put out a local signal so they can be read remotely by a truck driving by but they are not smart meters that are in communication with a central hub. I picked up dumb utility digital meter for my PV production and believe that one is also bidirectional so I think it all comes down to what the utility programs it to.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by azdave View Post

                        Someone in the US has solar and still has an old analog meter?
                        I did for the first month live on solar as well. I verified that the kwh dial went backwards during the day when I was putting power back onto the grid, so in essence it was the same as the digital meter I have today except one had dials, the other one an LED read out.

                        I wish I still had my analog meter TBH. With it, I could tell the *rate* at which I was consuming/putting power from/to the grid based on the speed of the gears. With the digital one, none of that is exposed and it's just a "dumb" meter from that perspective. I'd have to sit there and stare and see when it goes up/down to determine this.

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                        • #13
                          In 2006 or so, when i installed my 4Kw grid tie in Los Angeles County, I had a old disc meter, and it counted backwards. Had the meter for about 5 years, till I sold the house. At that time, I would assume that SCE changed it to a smart meter.
                          My house was on the market for about 3 days, and was bid up above asking. I'd educated my realtor, and another aerospace engineer was the buyer. 6 months later, my realtor installed his own GT syste,
                          Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                          || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                          || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                          solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                          gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

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                          • #14
                            I was told by our power company, that the analog meter will not register us giving power to them, so that was why they needed to install the smarmeter

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by StarLog View Post
                              I was told by our power company, that the analog meter will not register us giving power to them, so that was why they needed to install the smarmeter
                              That's why grid tied PV systems need smart meters.

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