American manufacturing of solar panels -- worth protecting?
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Wind works because GE (and others) chose to make huge capital investments in product development. As a result, you now have individual commercial wind turbines which have scaled to the Megawatt range:
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Based on GE's smallest unit (1.7MW) that's ~4657 PV panels @ 365W each. Not to mention the racking, conduit, copper cable, inverters, etc. and the number of square miles needed.
Still, this is small potatoes compared to the size of an average natural gas fired power plant -- 200 MW to 2000+ MW
or Nuclear (900-1400 MW)
or Coal (2000-4000 MW)
Of course the other key issue is managing the unpredictability of the sun and wind. Gas, coal, and nuclear plant outputs run 24x7 (for the most part) and their outputs can be ramped up and down as needed to match expected demand curves.
We could always build more pumped storage (-: One of the coolest power plants I toured as a kid was the old TVA Raccoon Mountain pumped storage plant (1652 MW)
A modern twist on this concept was the use of large air bladders beneath the ocean (similar pumped storage concept) -- proposed in Hawaii, not sure if it was ever built. But probably equally as damaging to the environment and surrounding ecosystems as pumped storage. I cannot imagine how many fish, turtles, and frogs get chewed up with these plants. Of course wind turbines kill large numbers of birds and bats. Most solar power systems are pretty harmless -- save for the molten salt reflector dish systems.
Other pumped storage plants
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Sure they work. That's not at issue. Question is, are they as cost effective to the same standards, criteria and cost accounting methods as the most cost effective alternate without subsidies ? And if not, how must the rules/methods be changed to make them as cost effective as the more cost effective method(s) ?
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Yes, that is the right question to be asking. And the only way to answer that for real is to look what utilities are paying for solar and wind without subsidies. And as of this year, that price is lower than it is for fossil and nuclear power - without subsidies, and without the requirements the US has for power content.Comment
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Yes, that is the right question to be asking. And the only way to answer that for real is to look what utilities are paying for solar and wind without subsidies. And as of this year, that price is lower than it is for fossil and nuclear power - without subsidies, and without the requirements the US has for power content.Comment
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Yes, that is the right question to be asking. And the only way to answer that for real is to look what utilities are paying for solar and wind without subsidies. And as of this year, that price is lower than it is for fossil and nuclear power - without subsidies, and without the requirements the US has for power content.
I am not saying we shouldn't grow solar and wind as power sources but they are still not the cheapest power due to their potential unavailability.Comment
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Solar and wind win when they're available. Power then becomes more expensive during the times when those two sources are not available. That's not the worst situation in the world, as it means electricity that causes air pollution is more expensive than electricity that doesn't.
I'm not arguing R.E. is not worthwhile. If/when the holy grail of energy storage becomes viable, that'll be a game changer. Hope it happens soon. I often thought it ought to be a DARPA project. But, until then and until everyone is on the same page and in agreement as to what goes into making up the "cost" of a generation source decision, be it assigning some NPV $$ cost equally to all generation methods, or some NPV equivalent cost of environmental impact, including fried or whacked birds, or some $$ value to the long term costs of conventional, including nuclear generation with its very large Q.C. documentation bureaucratic and safety costs incurred for reasons that make sense or not, all talk about what's more or what's less expensive is moot and no more than jaw jacking.
As for environmental "costs", and people caring about quality of environment issues, I'd ask a rhetorical question and see if it might provide some rhetorical insight as an example of the lack of concern for such things: What is the just about sole concern and reason why folks who show up here with ideas and questions about residential solar ? --->>> Usually and almost exclusively for no other reason than as a way to reduce a high electric bill. I'd suggest that if they gave a real crap about the environment, they'd mention it more.
Given that set of priorities, what do you think the chances are for getting people to pay more for power so they can breath cleaner air etc. To the extent that's a general M.O., good luck on anyone giving up dime one for the sake of saving the planet. My suspicion is such will be the popularity and outcome of attempts to adjust fuel costs to save the planet as is often used to justify higher R.E. costs. So, we're back to conventional costing that doesn't use the things that make solar and wind to appear more cost effective.
Put all generation methods on an equal cost accounting footing and if the environmental costs are considered, a lot, but not all forms of R.E. may be competitive in lots of, but not all ways.
Just don't expect many folks to voluntarily sign on the idea of paying the environmental cost.
If environmental cost consideration benefits and gov. largesse are removed from R.E, my educated guess is their costs will go up and they will be shown to be non cost effective and non competitive with conventional generation for most applications.
At this time R.E. can usually be made to appear more cost competitive than it may actually be because, fair, or unfair, sound logic for the future or not, the playing field is not level when it comes to generation costs and how they are accounted for.Comment
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import taxes to level the playing field, to tax imports to make them cost comparable to domestic products (EPA, OHSA etc) is fair.
Taxes to impose desired social engineering, is wrong headed and eventually failsPowerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
|| Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
|| VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A
solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-ListerComment
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How expensive a fuel is (including solar and wind generation depends to some extent on who 's doing the accounting. Often, the only ways R.E. can be conjured up as cost competitive with conventional fuel is when the costs of environmental impact are considered, as well as a generous added dollop of gov. subsidy.
priceofoil.org/content/uploads/2014/07/OCI_US_FF_Subsidies_Final_Screen.pdf has some figures:
page 19: Total Annual U.S. Federal Fossil Fuel Exploration and Production Subsidies: $18.5 billion
page 21: Total Annual U.S. State Fossil Fuel Exploration and Production Subsidies: $3.1 billion
page 22: Total Annual U.S. Federal Consumption Subsidies: $9 billion
page 23: Total Annual State Consumption Subsidies: $2.2 billion
page 26: 2013 Total exim bank financing: $4.4 billion
That's $37.2 billion annually subsidizing fossil fuel production or consumption... not to mention the health and other costs from burning those fossil fuels.
Doesn't sound like a level playing field. If fossil fuels are so great, why do they need those subsidies?Last edited by DanKegel; 07-07-2017, 03:17 AM.Comment
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Solar and wind win when they're available. Power then becomes more expensive during the times when those two sources are not available. That's not the worst situation in the world, as it means electricity that causes air pollution is more expensive than electricity that doesn't.
There are also places like hospitals and emergency services that could cause the loss of life should they "go dark" due to lack of electricity.
It all comes down to what someone feels is important and primary. For me keeping the lights on at a low cost is more important then worrying about an environment that will induce plant growth.Comment
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It also comes down to whether one ignores scientific consensus. Increasing carbon dioxide concentrations in the atmosphere does far more than induce plant growth.Comment
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Sun Eagle and Mike why do you keep letting Dan stay here? You know he is only post here to make trrouble and push his agenda. Nuke the SOB. You guys traded Russ for Dan and you know it.MSEE, PEComment
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As for environmental "costs", and people caring about quality of environment issues, I'd ask a rhetorical question and see if it might provide some rhetorical insight as an example of the lack of concern for such things: What is the just about sole concern and reason why folks who show up here with ideas and questions about residential solar ? --->>> Usually and almost exclusively for no other reason than as a way to reduce a high electric bill. I'd suggest that if they gave a real crap about the environment, they'd mention it more.
On other solar forums that is discussed a lot more openly without the personal attacks and demands for banning that happen here.
Given that set of priorities, what do you think the chances are for getting people to pay more for power so they can breath cleaner air etc. To the extent that's a general M.O., good luck on anyone giving up dime one for the sake of saving the planet.
Millenials say sustainability is a shopping priority
11/05/2015 Nielsen
Despite the fact that Millennials are coming of age in one of the most difficult economic climates in the past 100 years, a recent Nielsen global online study found that they continue to be most willing to pay extra for sustainable offeringsComment
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