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  • Solarizing my well

    Hi. I'm the new kid on the block! Here's what I'm trying to figure out how to do: I live in a rural area of NW FL. Marianna actually. I'm sensing an economic collapse in the near future and want to make my existing well solar powered. I can live without lots of stuff, but not water... I need some guidance as to how to set this up. I'm a building contractor and have experience in all fields and am very good with electric. I'll be doing everything myself on limited funds. I have around $10,000. to devote to this project. My well is 5 yrs old, 4" PV casing with a 1 hp 230 volt. I want to know how many and what type of batteries I need to run it, how many watts of PV I need to charge the batteries, the type & size of inverter/ charge controller I need. I would also use the system to power some household items when not using the well. Can I get a witness out there? I am 56 yrs old and nearly ignorant in the solar field and I want to do this ASAP. Thanks

  • #2
    Well you need to know how much power you will use in a day. You do have a rather huge problem, the well pump motor. How long will the pump run each day, and what else do you intend to run?
    MSEE, PE

    Comment


    • #3
      Various pump resources are at the following URLs -

      1) http://www.solarpumps.com/index.html
      2) Grundfos solar pump pdf http://www.us.grundfos.com/web/download.nsf/Pages/2B19EAAF8C0C8AFF88256B830056B6A7/$File/L-SQ-SL-010.pdf
      3) http://www.irrigationtutorials.com/pump.htm
      4) http://www.sunpumps.com/
      5) http://www.sunrayus.com/

      The irrigation tutorial has some information about solar pumping in it

      Like Sunking said - how much water per day?
      How deep are you pumping from?
      Can you use a head tank and have a separate pressure pump for household pressure?

      Russ
      [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

      Comment


      • #4
        Usage

        I'm pumping from 75'. I do have a tank at the well with an air pocket for pressurizing the system. Is that what you mean by head tank? We don't use much water, maybe 100 gls a day. The pump usually runs very little unless we water the grass. Again my reason for doing this is to prepare in case of an economic collapse and ensuing interruption in utilities. I would set this up with the ability to switch from PV to grid power for extended pump usage such as watering lawn. Should we lose the grid, I wouldn't care too much about the grass! I would guess that the pump runs less than 1 hr per day and not continuously at that. I've looked at DC pumps, but they run $1000 or more. I thought that money better spent on a bigger PV system producing AC power that would utilize my existing 230V pump. So how much battery power do I need for that 1hp pump to run for an hr? And how many watts of PV to recharge the batteries in a 5 hr sun period in NW FL? Thanks.

        Comment


        • #5
          I forgot

          Originally posted by Man of God View Post
          I'm pumping from 75'. I do have a tank at the well with an air pocket for pressurizing the system. Is that what you mean by head tank? We don't use much water, maybe 100 gls a day. The pump usually runs very little unless we water the grass. Again my reason for doing this is to prepare in case of an economic collapse and ensuing interruption in utilities. I would set this up with the ability to switch from PV to grid power for extended pump usage such as watering lawn. Should we lose the grid, I wouldn't care too much about the grass! I would guess that the pump runs less than 1 hr per day and not continuously at that. I've looked at DC pumps, but they run $1000 or more. I thought that money better spent on a bigger PV system producing AC power that would utilize my existing 230V pump. So how much battery power do I need for that 1hp pump to run for an hr? And how many watts of PV to recharge the batteries in a 5 hr sun period in NW FL? Thanks.
          The other items I would power would probably be a fridg, couple of light bulbs, just for basic survival without the grid. I would not use the well at the same time.

          Comment


          • #6
            Actually I am not in to the sort of scenarios you worried about.

            Good luck - with concerns like yours you seem to need it.

            Russ
            [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

            Comment


            • #7
              There are few inverters that can power a 240VAC "in the hole" well pump. Inverters are expensive, for the 10 minutes a day you run them.

              There are solar pumps for deep wells, but both the pumps and required controll boxes are very expensive too.

              There are some very slow pumps that can use PV DC to pump .5 gpm that aren't too expensive. I don't know if they can pressurize your bladder tank though. An elevated storage tank is a better bet. I went with a large, 240VAC inverter, 48V, and conventional 4" pump.




              Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV
              Powerfab poletop PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 400A battery bank | 15, Evergreen ESA 205 fa3 "12V" PV | Midnight ePanel |
              Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
              || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
              || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

              solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
              gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks for your INPUT Russ. Obviously, if I was depending on LUCK, I wouldn't be seeking advice on solar power on this forum. I did get "demeaning" of your post reply. Good moderating.

                Originally posted by russ View Post
                Actually I am not in to the sort of scenarios you worried about.

                Good luck - with concerns like yours you seem to need it.

                Russ

                Comment


                • #9
                  Solarizing my well

                  Thanks Mike. At least you're not belittling me like some did...
                  I'm thinking that by having the large AC capacity I can also use this for many other household items. I put my digital amp meter on one leg of the pumps 230V and it read 10.58a at start-up and settled at 9.88a. Does that equate to around 2400 watts?

                  What's your take on Xantrex inverters? I'm looking at the Tr-2424-230-50 Inverter/Charger. $1025.
                  The Xantrex Trace Series Inverter/Charger is an economical power conversion solution designed to provide dependable modified sine wave electricity. It can also be used in conjunction with a generator or any renewable energy source in an off-grid application.
                  Specifications:
                  Peak Efficiency CEC%: >94
                  DC Input Voltage: 24
                  Charger (Adj.) Current (Amps): 70
                  Continuous Power Watts: 2400
                  AC Output Volts: 230
                  Shipping Weight: 44lbs./19.95 kg
                  Dimensions: 8.4" x 21.6" x 7.7"/213.36 x 548.64 x 195.58 mm
                  Warranty info: 2 year warranty from manufacturer

                  I'm looking at battery banks also:
                  Trojan L16-RE-B-RE 24V 820Ah 19,680 watt hrs $2820.
                  Surrette S-530 24V 800Ar 19,200 watt hrs $2900.

                  Is there any problem with runnig a pump motor without using True Sine Wave? I wouldn't think so, but don't know for certain.

                  Thanks for your input.

                  Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post
                  There are few inverters that can power a 240VAC "in the hole" well pump. Inverters are expensive, for the 10 minutes a day you run them.

                  There are solar pumps for deep wells, but both the pumps and required controll boxes are very expensive too.

                  There are some very slow pumps that can use PV DC to pump .5 gpm that aren't too expensive. I don't know if they can pressurize your bladder tank though. An elevated storage tank is a better bet. I went with a large, 240VAC inverter, 48V, and conventional 4" pump.




                  Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV
                  Powerfab poletop PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 400A battery bank | 15, Evergreen ESA 205 fa3 "12V" PV | Midnight ePanel |

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Man of God View Post
                    I put my digital amp meter on one leg of the pumps 230V and it read 10.58a at start-up and settled at 9.88a. Does that equate to around 2400 watts?
                    Yes it does watts = volts x amps. But here is the problem the motor start up current is many times more, and the inverter has to be able to supply that large current. So if LRA is 5 x or 50 amps you would need a 12,000 watt inverter to start it up

                    The second problem even though you only run the pump 10 minutes per day only requiring 400 to 500 watt hours would lead one to believe you only need a fairly small battery. Well not in this case. At 24 volts would require 100 amp operating current and up to 500 to start. That requires a extremely large battery capacity to be able to deliver that much current.

                    At 500 watt hour per day only requires a 100 AH battery, but to pull 100 amps load requires a 500 AH battery.

                    So here is the fun and educational part. I can build you a system to supply 1000 watt hours per day for around $3000, twice as much power as you use. But because of the motor requires a $1700 battery instead of a $350 battery, and instead of say a inexpensive 300 watt MSW inverter for $150, you now need a 10 KW True sine wave inverter for $10,000.
                    MSEE, PE

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Start-up?

                      Does the start-up draw not show correctly on my meter? I had it hooked up and then had the pump start and watched the meter run to 10.58a. Seems to me (not an expert) that since this motor is not turning a compressor or something requiring much torque, is is only turning an impeller in water, that it's nearly free spinning. So why would it draw 5 times its running demand on start-up? My central AC comp is on a 30 amp circuit and it's hard to start. I can't imagine the well pump drawing more than my AC !

                      Originally posted by Sunking View Post
                      Yes it does watts = volts x amps. But here is the problem the motor start up current is many times more, and the inverter has to be able to supply that large current. So if LRA is 5 x or 50 amps you would need a 12,000 watt inverter to start it up

                      The second problem even though you only run the pump 10 minutes per day only requiring 400 to 500 watt hours would lead one to believe you only need a fairly small battery. Well not in this case. At 24 volts would require 100 amp operating current and up to 500 to start. That requires a extremely large battery capacity to be able to deliver that much current.

                      At 500 watt hour per day only requires a 100 AH battery, but to pull 100 amps load requires a 500 AH battery.

                      So here is the fun and educational part. I can build you a system to supply 1000 watt hours per day for around $3000, twice as much power as you use. But because of the motor requires a $1700 battery instead of a $350 battery, and instead of say a inexpensive 300 watt MSW inverter for $150, you now need a 10 KW True sine wave inverter for $10,000.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        One nice part of being retired is that when people are wanting to do things that don't make sense for reasons I don't believe in I no longer have to participate. When working one gets caught in those situations and suffers though it.

                        If you look at the pump links provided you can probably make progress. What you are talking about is not an unusual situation.

                        Russ
                        [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Man of God View Post
                          Does the start-up draw not show correctly on my meter? I had it hooked up and then had the pump start and watched the meter run to 10.58a. Seems to me (not an expert) that since this motor is not turning a compressor or something requiring much torque, is is only turning an impeller in water, that it's nearly free spinning. So why would it draw 5 times its running demand on start-up? My central AC comp is on a 30 amp circuit and it's hard to start. I can't imagine the well pump drawing more than my AC !
                          Correct, you need a PEAK reading AC ampmeter. Google Peak Reading AC ampmeter costs.
                          Try reading your AC compressor the same way, you will be surprised
                          The xw6048 I use, is only $3,500 - I'm not sure why Sunking said $10K.
                          Plus, any motor running on a mod sine inverter, will consume an extra 20% of power, which will be beyond the range of the Tr-2424-230-50 3,000w running !

                          And the pump is LIFTING that whole slug of 75' of water, plus the inertia of the rest of the pipe. That's why they install a torque arrester in the well with the pump, so it does not spin inside the casing.
                          2500W @ 24V = 104 a
                          2500W @ 48V = 52 a The xw6048 is rated 100% overload for 10 sec, so it's easily good for 12,000w for starting the pump. It also weighs 10x the little inverter, and has a 100A 240VAC charger in it too.

                          Or you can look into scaling back your pump, maybe cost $500 for a new pump & motor, properly sized to your needs, not what the well pump guy had sitting around on the truck when you needed one. The pump suppliers seldom match the pump & motor to your needs.
                          Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                          || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                          || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                          solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                          gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Man of God View Post
                            Does the start-up draw not show correctly on my meter?!
                            No it is too fast for the meter to read. If you have the pump model number LRA will be specified.
                            MSEE, PE

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hi, Im planning on solarizing my my pump also and maybe my idea can help.I had bought the pump but not yet installed it, a Grundfos 4-stage centrifugal type,1 hp 220v. Pumping level is 46 feet and maximum draw level on summer is around 55 feet.A little less than what you have.Actually, depth of of water level is not that critical as long as your pump specs are within range. Important is the power rating of your motor. A 1 hp motor sucking water from 75 versus a 1hp motor drawing watet at 20 feet would not differ much. The big difference is in your water flowrate, having more water at lesser depth.I have not tried mine in the actual installation. I've just tried my 1500 watt continuous/ 3000watts peak at inverter to drive a 1500 watts vacuum cleaner. IT worked well, no tripping. For your pump, its around 750 watts,3.4amps on 220v and maximum 4times the ampere during the few seconds of starting.Your 10+ amp reading could be starting ampere.If its not, then you probably have a motor other than a 1hp. Same as what the others said, check the specs. If its really a good condition 1 hp motor, you would need less panels than what you expect.

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