Indiana Senate Bill 309

[emartin00]

Maine just proposed a similar law.
After the solar companies, Utilities, House, and Senate all agreed on a bill to decrease the sell rate, the Gov vetoed it. Now the utilites and governor are pushing a by all-sell all bill

[SunEagle]

Sounds good in theory to have a utilities commission in place (for reasonable checks and balances of a public monopoly) but in Arizona, the ink on new commission members business cards was barely dry before they voted to end all net metering in the state. These were the candidates who campaigned heavily on radio and TV as "Solar Friendly" (not residential solar apparently). I've read that millions in dark money was spent getting those candidates into office so the vote to end net metering of 4-1 was really not a surprise.

Your PUC sounds very similar to the one we have here in Florida. They are very POCO friendly.

[bcroe]

Here in IL where corruption was perfected (half our governors end up in prison), similar stuff happens. But
enough citizens got upset that Citizens Utility Board has been working for over 3 decades. CUB spends a
lot of time in court, has saved customers BILLIONS of $ here, and uncovered some bad stuff.

The kind of rules mentioned above would simply end private solar electric. Some of those bills could be
challenged as outright illegal. Bruce Roe

[jflorey2]

Sounds good in theory to have a utilities commission in place (for reasonable checks and balances of a public monopoly) but in Arizona, the ink on new commission members business cards was barely dry before they voted to end all net metering in the state. These were the candidates who campaigned heavily on radio and TV as "Solar Friendly" (not residential solar apparently). I've read that millions in dark money was spent getting those candidates into office so the vote to end net metering of 4-1 was really not a surprise.

Yeah, the system definitely doesn't always work as designed.

When people get all riled up about a big election (generally a presidential one) I often find myself reminding them that the local elections are more important; they have a lot more to do with your life than the big ones. The school board is going to have a say in what your property taxes are, the mayor is going to have a lot of control over things like garbage pickup, the PUC commissioners (or the guy who appoints them) will have a lot of control over your utility rates. But all too often, the local elections get far less attention than they should.

[J.P.M.]

If it was a free market, that would make sense.

But if I tried to install a power distribution system to sell power to people, I would be told "no, sorry, your POCO has a monopoly on power here; you sell power and you go to jail." And to get that monopoly status, the POCO has to agree to abide by the rules of a public utility, answerable to the public (generally in the form of a public utilities commission, or URC, or PSC.) So it's not really their grid. It's the PUC's grid.

Now, change the status of those companies, and allow (say) four power companies to use the public right of way for power distribution, and I'd agree - let all four do whatever they want and let the market decide.

So, looks like you're saying that the regulators own the system by virtue of regulating it, or that a public company agreeing to abide by governing rules gives up ownership. If so, someone ought to inform Sempra ( SDG &E's parent co.) stockholders that they don't own the assets they thought they bought into. Using that logic, EDCO (the local garbage co. that uses publicly maintained roads) is also owned by local regulators in exchange for something of a monopoly. Same for the cable companies who seem to be providing a public service, although not as essential as power or garbage pickup.

[jflorey2]

So, looks like you're saying that the regulators own the system by virtue of regulating it, or that a public company agreeing to abide by governing rules gives up ownership. If so, someone ought to inform Sempra ( SDG &E's parent co.) stockholders that they don't own the assets they thought they bought into.

Neither. They own the equipment. The public owns the rights-of-way. In consideration for the right to use all that land, and to be be granted an effective monopoly, the POCO agrees to follow specific rules that other companies do not.

[Sunking]

Neither. They own the equipment. The public owns the rights-of-way. In consideration for the right to use all that land, and to be be granted an effective monopoly, the POCO agrees to follow specific rules that other companies do not.

They also have to pay a very seriously high ad valorem tax to obtain those right-of-ways. Put a new power plant in your town, and you get new schools and roads. Right-Of Way passes through same thing.

[adoublee]

They also have to pay a very seriously high ad valorem tax to obtain those right-of-ways. Put a new power plant in your town, and you get new schools and roads. Right-Of Way passes through same thing.

Taxes the utility pay are an indirect way for government to collect taxes without the public knowing. Utility profit is guaranteed, so any taxes paid are just utility cost increase to the public.

[jflorey2]

They also have to pay a very seriously high ad valorem tax to obtain those right-of-ways. Put a new power plant in your town, and you get new schools and roads. Right-Of Way passes through same thing.

That they do. Companies are willing to pay a lot to get that guaranteed monopoly.

[Sunking]

Taxes the utility pay are an indirect way for government to collect taxes without the public knowing. Utility profit is guaranteed, so any taxes paid are just utility cost increase to the public.

Does not matter. The Tax is a property tax and is a percentage of the property value. Depending on the state and county can be as low as 13% and as high as 25%. That is what pays for your schools and roads. Last thing you want is to do away with utilities. That is a fools game. Just like Oil and Gas without them your 401K is worthless and you have no schools and roads. Educate yourself and be careful what you ask for. You want Grid Tied, then pay the taxes and accept wholesale rates for excess you generate. You are not entitled to free power.

[adoublee]

Does not matter. The Tax is a property tax and is a percentage of the property value. Depending on the state and county can be as low as 13% and as high as 25%. That is what pays for your schools and roads. Last thing you want is to do away with utilities. That is a fools game. Just like Oil and Gas without them your 401K is worthless and you have no schools and roads. Educate yourself and be careful what you ask for. You want Grid Tied, then pay the taxes and accept wholesale rates for excess you generate. You are not entitled to free power.

I DO NOT want to pay for schools, roads, or welfare with my electric bill.

[J.P.M.]

I DO NOT want to pay for schools, roads, or welfare with my electric bill.

As long as you buy products or services from a company in your community, you do business with some entity that pays taxes within your community. The cost of those taxes the company pays influences what you pay for those goods and services. Lower taxes, you'll pay less. Higher taxes, you'll pay more. Unless the tax burden is zero, some part of what you pay for goods and services will be buried in the prices you pay. I don't like it either, but life is not perfect.

[Sunking]

I DO NOT want to pay for schools, roads, or welfare with my electric bill.

Tuff tity said the kitty. Leave the country. You will pay one way or the other.

Like I said educate yourself. Ad Valorem Tax is not a tax paid by any biz. The are imposed on railroads, utilities, royalty owners, mineral rights, and a major source of income for local governments. You or any biz would go bankrupt if they had to pay 20% tax on your house or biz property value every year.

[solar pete]

I think I would happy pay 20% extra tax if it meant a captive market with friendly regulators.

[adoublee]

As long as you buy products or services from a company in your community, you do business with some entity that pays taxes within your community. The cost of those taxes the company pays influences what you pay for those goods and services. Lower taxes, you'll pay less. Higher taxes, you'll pay more. Unless the tax burden is zero, some part of what you pay for goods and services will be buried in the prices you pay. I don't like it either, but life is not perfect.

Thanks for that lesson in economics, though I think that is all pretty obvious. I'm more talking about the ability of local governments using "regulated" monopolies with guaranteed profits to hide how much tax they are collecting from the public. A standard company in my community pays taxes related to the business they are in, and while property tax is a blanket tax to pay for road maintenance and schools - it is out in the open what the levy rate is for each separate "tax".

The utility grid is not the bastion of fairness some here make it out to be. If anyone thinks the cost of schools and roads should be loaded into the kWh rate of the electric bill - I question if they have a pension or income connected to a utility somehow...