Any tips for elec water heaters?

[PNPmacnab]

It might be necessary in the future. I sat in California some new subdivisions have to recycle grey water for non potable home use in order to build with water restrictions. I remember my grandfathers house had hot, cold and cistern faucets at the kitchen sink. Everything comes around.

[PNPmacnab]

Interesting...................

An unapproved post of two sentences discussing the use of grey water in California and my grandfathers kitchen faucets.

[inetdog]

Approved now. We have gotten very sensitive to "kitchen" over the last few months. Especially if found in the same post with "UK"

[bcroe]

I guess that could be done with 2 different pumps. I'd be inclined to have a momentary push button that
lights when in the hot water mode; it would change back automatically in 20 minutes. Or change back when
a big temp differential developed between the source and use point; those would stay nearly the same in use.
Bruce Roe

Well that won't work. How about the momentary button turns on the circulator; the light flashes
and then stays on to indicate when the point of use is at the desired temp? The circulator
immediately shuts off. This would not be very hard to add to my control. Harder was taking a
10mv per deg Kelvin signal (LM135) and converting to degrees F. Bruce Roe

[Walker]

Thanks for all the info. Current plan :
-Upsize to a 50 gallon tank for additional capacity during off peak, solar, or timed use.
-Increase storage temp to 150*F for same reason, and use a tempering valve to limit output to approx 110*F.
-Additional insulation on tank and pipes.
-Add a heat trap to in/out lines to help prevent hot water migration into rest of system when not in use.... Saw this posted on the hotwatertimer site.
-Add a timer to limit elec use. Still need to pick something out. Would like a remote mounted control for easy access. Lots of options out there.

Shopping...
Energy guide rating labels are nearly useless. My 80 gallon 1989 tank is rated at $557 per year. Current tanks are mostly rated at $555 per year whether it's a basic 30 gallon tank, or a premium 'smart' 50 gallon. I would have thought there would be standards for ratings but it doesn't appear that way.
The primary differences between the 6 year and 12 year models are the anodes and controls. Many feature the glass lined tank, so no difference there. Some have ss elements instead of copper. While I was initially seduced by the optional high-end controls with wi-fi capibility (Control your water heater with your smart phone!!!), I was turned off by the high cost of the replacement $122 control panel , and $128 thermostat. I like simple, durable, easy to repair equipment. Anodes and elements are low cost repairs. Electronics are not.

Bruce, yes, I'm in SE Pa. Well water and septic system, so water cost is very low. The 50 second wait for hot water at distant faucet isn't a concern for me.
I couldn't find any info on the amount of standby losses, I'll take your 20% SWAG! It's difficult to determine without measuring temperature....What is a good method for monitoring the water temperature inside the tank?

I'll have to dig up my old elec bills for some real info on my HW costs. My heater initially used a separate meter for off-peak use, but PECO did away with that a few years ago, but I still have the separate meter.

Recirculators..... would be nice to have a voice-activated pump via Amazon or Google control.... 'Alexa, prepare my shower!'

[bcroe]

Bruce, yes, I'm in SE Pa. Well water and septic system, so water cost is very low. The 50 second wait for hot water
at distant faucet isn't a concern for me.

I couldn't find any info on the amount of standby losses, I'll take your 20% SWAG! It's difficult to determine without
measuring temperature....What is a good method for monitoring the water temperature inside the tank?

Recirculators..... would be nice to have a voice-activated pump via Amazon or Google control....
'Alexa, prepare my shower!'

I took a transistor like temp sensor (TO92 package), used heat shrink tubing to cover wires, and probed all the
metal coming out of the WH insulation. The hottest one I declared as my internal reference, and clamped the
sensor there. An identical sensor is at the far end of the
WatCirc.png
loop. A cheap digital voltmeter reads out temps or the differential in deg F. The temp difference between
the sensors turns the pump on and off. This messy setup has been cleaned up since the picture.

Have well and sewer on property here in the country too.

There will never be an Alexa in my house. Bruce

[J.P.M.]

Thanks for all the info. Current plan :
-Upsize to a 50 gallon tank for additional capacity during off peak, solar, or timed use.
-Increase storage temp to 150*F for same reason, and use a tempering valve to limit output to approx 110*F.
-Additional insulation on tank and pipes.
-Add a heat trap to in/out lines to help prevent hot water migration into rest of system when not in use.... Saw this posted on the hotwatertimer site.
-Add a timer to limit elec use. Still need to pick something out. Would like a remote mounted control for easy access. Lots of options out there.

Shopping...
Energy guide rating labels are nearly useless. My 80 gallon 1989 tank is rated at $557 per year. Current tanks are mostly rated at $555 per year whether it's a basic 30 gallon tank, or a premium 'smart' 50 gallon. I would have thought there would be standards for ratings but it doesn't appear that way.
The primary differences between the 6 year and 12 year models are the anodes and controls. Many feature the glass lined tank, so no difference there. Some have ss elements instead of copper. While I was initially seduced by the optional high-end controls with wi-fi capibility (Control your water heater with your smart phone!!!), I was turned off by the high cost of the replacement $122 control panel , and $128 thermostat. I like simple, durable, easy to repair equipment. Anodes and elements are low cost repairs. Electronics are not.

Bruce, yes, I'm in SE Pa. Well water and septic system, so water cost is very low. The 50 second wait for hot water at distant faucet isn't a concern for me.
I couldn't find any info on the amount of standby losses, I'll take your 20% SWAG! It's difficult to determine without measuring temperature....What is a good method for monitoring the water temperature inside the tank?

I'll have to dig up my old elec bills for some real info on my HW costs. My heater initially used a separate meter for off-peak use, but PECO did away with that a few years ago, but I still have the separate meter.

Recirculators..... would be nice to have a voice-activated pump via Amazon or Google control.... 'Alexa, prepare my shower!'

I've found putting a 12' high loop, or a downward run immediately or ASAP after tank exit to be a very effective thermal trap as well as a slight rise or more to the cold inlet before it enters the tank.

Glad to hear the hot H2O delay is not a crisis to your sensibilities.

I've found insulating anything is an endeavor where attention to detail is very important. A small gap can undo a lot of what otherwise is good work and produce heat loss/gain out of all proportion to what you may think. Also, don't use cloth duct tape - it doesn't last.

Best and easiest guess on tank temp. is to run a couple of gal. from the nearest hot H2O outlet at a high rate of draw, and stick a thermometer in it. Add 5 deg. F. or so and call it close enough. FWIW, I've found overflowing a glass in a sink with a thermometer in it works well. Digital stem thermometers like used for cooking cost ~ $12 - $15,work well, read to 0.1 deg and can be calibrated quite easily against an ice bath and boiling waterwith your body temp. and a medical thermometer serving as sort of a mid point if you want.

I've got more ways to est. a tank temp., but they're pretty boring, a bit specialized to my situation, and not much better in terms of usefulness or accuracy than what's above. Holler if you want more info.

01/16/2017: Add - to be clear, that's a SWAG on 20 % of the existing standby losses, NOT 20 % of your total usage. I've found it tough to achieve reductions I think are possible or implied by computing possible R value reductions - usually, and very roughly, I can achieve an overall loss reduction of ~ 1/2 to 2/3 of what such a simple analysis would tell me to expect. That's where my 20 % improvement estimate over existing system loss number came from. You may do better, and that's great. FWIW, just don't be disappointed or at least walk in with your eyes and expectations open, and pay lots of attention to the insulation details like gaps and discontinuities in the insulating barrier and take your time.