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  • Ampster
    replied
    Originally posted by angelgz2 View Post
    Hi All,

    @J.P.M. has a very good point that a home is only worth what people are willing to pay for it.
    Yes, that is the cutomary description that appraisers use for the term "market value".

    Leave a comment:


  • angelgz2
    replied
    Hi All,

    @J.P.M. has a very good point that a home is only worth what people are willing to pay for it. You know the funny thing is that I was going to remodel that house and I thank God that my contractor was honest and recommended against it. His words I will remember for the rest of my life -- "Buddy, you can build your house with gold for all I care but if your local market is a $300K market, you aren't gonna get much higher than that."

    When your local economy experiences a recession, EVERYTHING changes. As their employment now in potential jeopardy, buyers focus more on short term benefit rather than thinking long term. That's when solar actually become a detriment to my sale, especially given local utility company's unfriendly solar policies. I bought my house for $305K, spent $37k on the 10kw system and sold my house recently for $265K before paying off the solar loan and realtor commission. Almost $100k loss is a hard pill to swallow when you try to do something good.

    California is pretty much an "outlier" for anything really. I'm actually a native Californian for most of my life. The fact that there's more government programs and incentives for solar, people are more receptive to the idea. That's why I said the statistics maybe skewed because how many of their surveys are installations in CA?
    Last edited by angelgz2; 11-06-2019, 06:22 PM.

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  • bcroe
    replied
    Originally posted by Ampster View Post
    That is why when my natural gas furnace quits I am replacing it with a zoned heat pump. That way I can keep the bedroom cool in summer and warm in winter without wasting all that energy on the rest of the house.

    i am analyzing the cost of a single heat pump for just the bedroom. I think I could do that for less than $1,200.
    The effective temp range, BTU capacity (always more for heat), and efficiency vary greatly on
    the market. Get the one that fits your needs. The cost on very capable mini splits here this
    year was about like double that, and double again for turn key install. Bruce Roe

    Leave a comment:


  • Ampster
    replied
    That is why when my natural gas furnace quits I am replacing it with a zoned heat pump. That way I can keep the bedroom cool in summer and warm in winter without wasting all that energy on the rest of the house.

    i am analyzing the cost of a single heat pump for just the bedroom. I think I could do that for less than $1,200.
    Last edited by Ampster; 11-03-2019, 11:37 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • bcroe
    replied
    Originally posted by PugPower View Post
    We have large 250+ gallon propane tank outside which supplies our furnace, tankless hot water heater, and oven/range. After going solar I toyed with the idea of changing all the appliances to electric since propane can be expensive. The tankless hot water heater and oven use only a very minimal amount of gas and wouldn't be cost-effective to replace. But the 1980's monster furnace in the basement guzzles propane. Considering the cost to replace it with a electric one would be a few thousand dollars and that we only use it a few months out of the year here in sunny CA, I can't justify replacing it. Instead we sometimes use a electric space heater in the bedroom if it gets very cold and my better half complains.
    That is what is going on here. Consider that it takes about 27 KWH into a resistance heater
    to replace 1 gallon of propane into a high efficiency furnace. However you can reduce the
    KWH requirement several times by using a latest technology heat pump. Some of my heat
    pumps deliver one ton of heat into a zone and can be effective down to neg 13F. Very efficient
    cooling with a SEER of 33. I replace what cannot meet my requirements, and keep what works
    no matter how old it is. Bruce Roe

    Leave a comment:


  • PugPower
    replied
    We have large 250+ gallon propane tank outside which supplies our furnace, tankless hot water heater, and oven/range. After going solar I toyed with the idea of changing all the appliances to electric since propane can be expensive. The tankless hot water heater and oven use only a very minimal amount of gas and wouldn't be cost-effective to replace. But the 1980's monster furnace in the basement guzzles propane. Considering the cost to replace it with a electric one would be a few thousand dollars and that we only use it a few months out of the year here in sunny CA, I can't justify replacing it. Instead we sometimes use a electric space heater in the bedroom if it gets very cold and my better half complains.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ampster
    replied
    Originally posted by PugPower View Post
    I'm a wee bit North of you, but witness the same trend. My household of 2 adults consumes approx. 7,500 kWh per year. I would not say that we are ultra conservative with our use. We run the AC during the summer, do laundry once a week, and have plenty of electronics constantly plugged in. Majority of my neighbors use twice the amount of electricity we do. So yes, I afeel there is plenty of room for improvement through conservation w/o having to pay for a pv system.
    Well here is another perspective. The year before my PTO I purchased 3600 kWhrs from PG&E. My solar had been installed but I was only able to offset my daytime usage and got no credit for any excess. I did charge my EVs, heat domestic water, run my dryer and AC during those days but was careful to not consume more than I was generating during daytime. In the seven months since my PTO I have a $600 NEM credit and a negative 700 kWhrs. I expect in the next five months to actually be a net consumer of power because my kWhr usage should be positive by True Up. My goal is not to consume less but to get more value out of my PV system by putting the coulombs into my EVs and have the flexibility to let my wife run our electric dryer whenever she wants. We do have natural gas but only use it for cooking and heating. We installed an electric clothes dryer and converted a gas water heater to a heat pump water heater. My long term goal is to eliminate any natural gas in the home but I am not going to throw away a 10 year old furnace or change out the stove top in the near future.

    Leave a comment:


  • RichardCullip
    replied
    Like J.P.M and PugPower. I agree that the best bang for your buck is energy conservation efforts prior to going solar. As an example, our 1970's vintage house in Poway is ~1900sqft. In 2013, our first full year in the house after retiring and moving from Bakersfield to Poway, we used 6,014kWh. A year or two later we added a whole house fan which helped out quite a bit during the summer A/C season. As soon as the outside temperature dropped to equal the inside temperature (set at 78) we would turn off the A/C, open a few windows and kick on the whole house fan. The next year we had the old insulation in the attic cleaned out and replaced with new, at least doubling the R value. These two steps, in addition to replacing south facing windows, reduced our electrical use to 4,880kWh average over the last three years. This year we finally went solar (cash purchase) and should see our annual SDGE bill drop from ~$1,400 to ~$124.

    We currently have enough spare solar generation that we plan to add a PHEV to our demand and use up to 200kWh per month keeping it charged up and giving us up to, perhaps, 640 miles of electric-driven miles per month. With this additional demand our annual SDGE bill should go up to ~$160, assuming no dramatic change in SDGE's rate schedule. Without solar, our new bill would be ~$2,200 per year.

    I don't have a clue on what the LCOE of our setup will end up being as there are just too many unknowns about the future changes in SDGE's rate schedules and potential changes to the NEM 2.0 rules we are operating today.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ampster
    replied
    Originally posted by SunEagle View Post

    I fear that the net zero construction law will drive people away from CA because of the increased cost for a new home. I believe the city of St Pete here in Fl tried to pass a similar law and it was voted down by a large %. People just don't want to be told to do something. They would rather the State find a way to lower prices so PV is affordable to all.

    On a side note I read somewhere (probably fake news) that CA would be soon mandating EV's for all future vehicles. The rub was that you may be required to purchase an EV yet the POCO's might be turning off the power to reduce fire hazards. Seems ironic to me.
    Yes the net zero construction law will add costs to new housing. People that can afford new housing are probably in California for the employment opportunities so I don't think they will stop coming. I do agree there are those that will leave because they can't afford to buy a home or live comfortably in California with their current income level. California has some aggressive Renewable Portfolio Standards and that is what is driving the legislation. That is going to be a economic boon to other parts of the country where people will migrate to for more affordable housing. California has been leaning to the left for a long time so other than the Central Valley and parts of Orange County and San Diego County there aren't too many conservative politicians left to oppose any of the recent legislation.

    Yes that is probably fake news about EV mandates, but I wouldn't be surprised to see continued incentives by the state for EVs. They already have a higher percentage of EV drivers and the largest manufacturing company in the state is Tesla. California does have several other states that have joined them in setting higher air quality standards and even Ford, and a few European manufacturers have recently supported California in a higher standard than the Federal government wants to set. I grew up in LA in the fifties and sixties when there were days that you could not see the mountains and since I was an athtlete my lungs often hurt after practice so I welcome the cleaner air. Yes it does seem ironic that the POCOs turned off power but I had no problem charging my EVs and there were lines around the block and many gas stations before the outages and of course no gas stations pumping gas during the outages. I guess it all depends on where you are standing whether it will be a problem or not.

    Leave a comment:


  • PugPower
    replied
    I'm a wee bit North of you, but witness the same trend. My household of 2 adults consumes approx. 7,500 kWh per year. I would not say that we are ultra conservative with our use. We run the AC during the summer, do laundry once a week, and have plenty of electronics constantly plugged in. Majority of my neighbors use twice the amount of electricity we do. So yes, I afeel there is plenty of room for improvement through conservation w/o having to pay for a pv system.

    Leave a comment:


  • J.P.M.
    replied
    Originally posted by PugPower View Post
    Of course using less is always a better option. But there is only so much you can cut back on, also even though you try and save every year the cost of electricity goes up so the savings never seem to materialize.

    I'm my current neighborhood in rural N. San Diego County, half of the homes on my street have a PV system. Many of the adjacent neighborhoods are similar.
    On usage and there being only so much you can cut back on: I live in 92026 (probably not too far from you). My home is 3,200 ft.^2 and built in 1980. I'm one of the bigger homes in the HOA. Many/most households are 2 people, both retired, just like my situation. I use ~ 7,200 kWh/yr. The average usage in this HOA is ~ 2X that, or ~ 14 -16,000 kWh/yr. That's also pretty typical in terms of proportionate use in other places I've lived. Given those #'s, the idea that there is only so much conservation that can be done strikes me as a bunch of disingenuous B.S.

    Leave a comment:


  • PugPower
    replied
    Having previously or currently owned property in LA, Riverside, OC, and SD, I found the cost of electricity in SD to be higher than the others.

    Of course using less is always a better option. But there is only so much you can cut back on, also even though you try and save every year the cost of electricity goes up so the savings never seem to materialize.

    I'm my current neighborhood in rural N. San Diego County, half of the homes on my street have a PV system. Many of the adjacent neighborhoods are similar.

    Leave a comment:


  • J.P.M.
    replied
    Originally posted by PugPower View Post
    A properly designed PV system can be very attractive in sunny CA. The thing is that depending on which county/utility district you live in the actual value of the system and ROI will vary greatly. For example, San Diego county SDGE has some of the highest electricity prices in the country. SD also has one of the largest amounts of residential PV installs in the country. It is not unusual to drive through some neighborhoods in SD and see a PV system on every other house. While Orange County and LA on the other hand have lower electricity costs and less demand for residential PV systems.
    How did you reach the opinion that SDG & E customers pay more per kWh than SCE customers ? Got any numbers or just hearsay/what you read from greenwash media or uninformed sources ?

    Besides, residential rates within each utility can vary quite a bit even from one neighbor to the next for reasons most folks are completely unaware of. Overall the two POCO's residential rates are about comparable.

    Bottom line: Smart folks know you don't pay for what you don't use, and it's cheaper to not use electricity in the first place than generate more of it.

    As for installs being on every other house in some neighborhoods, my HOA has one of the highest PV utilization rates in CA and it's about 28 %. Can you point me in the direction of a neighborhood that's HOA size with => 50% utilization ? I've got streets in my HOA with clusters of 4-6 homes w/ PV out of a dozen or so homes, but that's mostly monkey see/monkey do play, or keeping up with the Joneses.

    As for ROI, the way I learned it, depending on relative cost, the best ROI/smallest installed cost of an improvement is the one to start with- like changing thermostat settings and simply turning stuff off when not in use.

    Again using the ~ 150 installs in my HOA, having been involved with every one of them, I'm of the opinion that every residence with a PV system would have been money ahead if use reduction and conservation measures had been taken and the resulting energy savings been considered before PV was added.

    PV may be cost effective, but that's different than the idea that while it may be cost effective, it's also usually the least cost effective and also usually the most expensive way to reduce an electric bill when compared to other measures, and that'/s before any consideration for the effects that those other measures will have on reducing the size and hence the cost of the smaller PV system after conservation efforts.

    That's how to optimize the use of the funds with respect to electric bill reduction.

    Leave a comment:


  • PugPower
    replied
    A properly designed PV system can be very attractive in sunny CA. The thing is that depending on which county/utility district you live in the actual value of the system and ROI will vary greatly. For example, San Diego county SDGE has some of the highest electricity prices in the country. SD also has one of the largest amounts of residential PV installs in the country. It is not unusual to drive through some neighborhoods in SD and see a PV system on every other house. While Orange County and LA on the other hand have lower electricity costs and less demand for residential PV systems.

    Leave a comment:


  • J.P.M.
    replied
    Originally posted by SunEagle View Post

    It makes sense to purchase a PV system when you are building a new home. The additional cost is minimal compare to the rest of the home. Still there are some people that may not be able to get a mortgage if the amount they have to borrow is above what they can afford. It all comes down to the additional amount the builder asks for to include the PV.
    Depending on building code conservation mandates, PV prices, home orientation and design, and climate, it may/may not make sense to add PV to a property.

    Maybe a good idea, but in the most bang for the energy buck realm game, PV may/may not be the most cost effective place to put the $$ earmarked for lower future utility bills.

    Example: In cold and (winter) cloudy climates such as the NE /upper midwest U.S., a more cost effective and at least/probably equally comfortable home without any PV hassles can be of a superinsulated type, probably with some fenestration consideration/placement for passive solar winter heat gain and summer shading.

    PV is not necessarily a slam dunk in every situation. Many, yes. All, no.

    To imply PV is always a no brainer without considering all the energy conservation measures that can/may have a greater long term economic benefit does a disservice to the solar curious who are also and mostly solar ignorant who already get the pro PV hype crammed down their throat from media and peddlers.

    Leave a comment:

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