New to Forum. a little confused

[danleaf]

UL listed or not?

http://www.sunelec.com/Specs/JA285.pdf

Today I received the panels and the inverter. I looked at one panel and did not see any other stickers than a serial number and the model number. I was expecting all these stickers with all the certifications. The vendor website info, (see link above) says that model number is UL listed. Is that good enough?

[Naptown]

there should be a sticker on the back of the panel near the junction box with the certifications and spec's

[danleaf]

there should be a sticker on the back of the panel near the junction box with the certifications and spec's

Here are the pictures of the panel sticker and the pallet sticker. Now I am confused again. Looks like Sunelec remove manufacturer's labels and put their own at a lower rating. What are these panels now?Still JA Solar?


PanelSticker.jpg

PalletSticker.jpg

[russ]

Here are the pictures of the panel sticker and the pallet sticker. Now I am confused again. Looks like Sunelec remove manufacturer's labels and put their own at a lower rating. What are these panels now?Still JA Solar?


[ATTACH=CONFIG]2842[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2843[/ATTACH]

Ask JA Solar - Maybe Sun Elec is playing games? It looks like they would now be responsible for the warranty? If so it is probably meaningless.

[danleaf]

Ask JA Solar - Maybe Sun Elec is playing games? It looks like they would now be responsible for the warranty? If so it is probably meaningless.

It is not the warranty I am worried about, is about passing the inspection.

[russ]

It is not the warranty I am worried about, is about passing the inspection.

Ask JA Solar - This would not appear to be their doing but the end supplier playing games.

No mention of a UL listing

[danleaf]

Panels passed, but I still failed the inspection

It is not the warranty I am worried about, is about passing the inspection.

Well the day of the inspection came. Was raining like crazy here and the inspector did not want to go on the roof. So the panels passed based on the catalog information.

But I still failed the inspection because the Kaco inverter did not have an UL logo on the sticker, because was not "listed". I called Kaco and they say, and I believe they are right, that the TUV Rheinland of North America logo should satisfy the "listed" requirement. The reason that I believe they are right is because TUV is part of the National Recognized Testing Laboratories and is certified in WA state to do UL 1741 testing. Should this new info be enough to pass the inspection?

Thank you.

[KRenn]

Well the day of the inspection came. Was raining like crazy here and the inspector did not want to go on the roof. So the panels passed based on the catalog information.

But I still failed the inspection because the Kaco inverter did not have an UL logo on the sticker, because was not "listed". I called Kaco and they say, and I believe they are right, that the TUV Rheinland of North America logo should satisfy the "listed" requirement. The reason that I believe they are right is because TUV is part of the National Recognized Testing Laboratories and is certified in WA state to do UL 1741 testing. Should this new info be enough to pass the inspection?

Thank you.

It all entirely depends on the utility, and your willingness to prove you are within the requirements. Essentially the utility can demand the UL logo.....you can fight them by utilizing current code and showing how the inverter meets their requirements, but that can be some real uphill hand-to-hand combat.


Personally I would never recommend a Kaco inverter though, have seen a lot of issues with their inverters malfunctioning....etc.

[Sunking]

But I still failed the inspection because the Kaco inverter did not have an UL logo on the sticker, because was not "listed". I called Kaco and they say, and I believe they are right, that the TUV Rheinland of North America logo should satisfy the "listed" requirement. The reason that I believe they are right is because TUV is part of the National Recognized Testing Laboratories and is certified in WA state to do UL 1741 testing. Should this new info be enough to pass the inspection?

No it will not pass no matter how much you or the manufacture wishes it will pass.

There are two rules you must remember when working with AHJ (inspectors aka Authority Having Jurisdiction))

1. The Inspector is always right.
2. When inspector is wrong refer to rule # 1.

The inspector has you by the balls, and the code and law on his side. Reference Definitions in NEC:

Listed. Equipment, materials, or services included in a list
published by an organization that is acceptable to the authority
having jurisdiction and concerned with evaluation
of products or services, that maintains periodic inspection
of production of listed equipment or materials or periodic
evaluation of services, and whose listing states that either
the equipment, material, or service meets appropriate designated
standards or has been tested and found suitable for
a specified purpose.

FPN: The means for identifying listed equipment may vary
for each organization concerned with product evaluation,
some of which do not recognize equipment as listed unless
it is also labeled. Use of the system employed by the listing
organization allows the authority having jurisdiction to
identify a listed product.

This part right here makes the AHJ correct and you cannot fight it. He/she simply does not recognize TUV as a recognized testing Lab. He wants and will only accept UL. End of story. It should have been caught during the permit phase and your permit denied for using unlisted equipment. Bet you $10 a material list was not submitted, or material was substituted.

acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction and concerned with evaluation of products or services

[inetdog]

This part right here makes the AHJ correct and you cannot fight it. He/she simply does not recognize TUV as a recognized testing Lab. He wants and will only accept UL. End of story.

And hence the slightly paradoxical phenomenon of state or locally adopted lists of Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratories.

Your only hope, and a slim one, is if your state or locality has formally adopted such a list and done it in a way that explicitly trumped the authority of each AHJ or inspector to make that judgement on their own.

[danleaf]

And hence the slightly paradoxical phenomenon of state or locally adopted lists of Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratories.

Your only hope, and a slim one, is if your state or locality has formally adopted such a list and done it in a way that explicitly trumped the authority of each AHJ or inspector to make that judgement on their own.

I might just be really lucky: http://www.lni.wa.gov/tradeslicensin...st/default.asp
WA state does have TUV in their accredited list. The inspector did suggest as a "solution" to get a third party to certify the inverter. But will the third party put the UL mark on it? Or their own mark? TUV does have their mark on the inverter http://www.tuv.com/en/usa/services_u...tion.html#tab3

The irony is that I live within a few miles from one of the main UL testing labs.

I emailed the inspector, I am now waiting for his reply.

[inetdog]

WA state does have TUV in their accredited list. The inspector did suggest as a "solution" to get a third party to certify the inverter. But will the third party put the UL mark on it? Or their own mark? TUV does have their mark on the inverter

All that TUV can do is put a TUV or TUV-NA mark on it and identify the standard to which it was tested (which may be a UL standard.) So what you need may be there already. There are also NRTLs besides UL that are based in the US, and the inspector may be trying to hold out for one of those. If so he is on shaky ground.

Now if TUV only tested the inverter to european standards, it would do you no good at all.

[danleaf]

No it will not pass no matter how much you or the manufacture wishes it will pass.

There are two rules you must remember when working with AHJ (inspectors aka Authority Having Jurisdiction))

1. The Inspector is always right.
2. When inspector is wrong refer to rule # 1.

The inspector has you by the balls, and the code and law on his side. Reference Definitions in NEC:

Listed. Equipment, materials, or services included in a list
published by an organization that is acceptable to the authority
having jurisdiction and concerned with evaluation
of products or services, that maintains periodic inspection
of production of listed equipment or materials or periodic
evaluation of services, and whose listing states that either
the equipment, material, or service meets appropriate designated
standards or has been tested and found suitable for
a specified purpose.

FPN: The means for identifying listed equipment may vary
for each organization concerned with product evaluation,
some of which do not recognize equipment as listed unless
it is also labeled. Use of the system employed by the listing
organization allows the authority having jurisdiction to
identify a listed product.

This part right here makes the AHJ correct and you cannot fight it. He/she simply does not recognize TUV as a recognized testing Lab. He wants and will only accept UL. End of story. It should have been caught during the permit phase and your permit denied for using unlisted equipment. Bet you $10 a material list was not submitted, or material was substituted.

It seems to me the inspectors have way to much power, they are still humans not God. The same inspector touched a split bolt grounding connection at the inverter that I believe it was suppose to be irreversible connection. He did not say anything.

I did go to their office with all the documentation before I start working and they only looked at the one line and called it good.

You say the inverter is not listed, but TUV is recognized by OSHA and WA state to perform UL 1741 standard certifications. So the TUV mark on the inverter shows that it is listed.

I still hope that he will accept the TUV mark. The WA state law says he should.

[danleaf]

All that TUV can do is put a TUV or TUV-NA mark on it and identify the standard to which it was tested (which may be a UL standard.) So what you need may be there already. There are also NRTLs besides UL that are based in the US, and the inspector may be trying to hold out for one of those. If so he is on shaky ground.

Now if TUV only tested the inverter to european standards, it would do you no good at all.

Here is a picture of the sticker:

20130522_154125.jpg

The certificate in the manual says it was tested to UL 1741.

[KRenn]

Here is a picture of the sticker:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2906[/ATTACH]

The certificate in the manual says it was tested to UL 1741.

Did you install the system yourself or did have a 3rd party install it?