I Can't See How Leasing Doesn't Beat Purchasing, Can You?

[Ian S]

SunPower has a function on their site where you can lookup local dealers via zipcode search. Prices can vary wildly between various dealers so ask to get some quotes via email from a couple of different ones. I'm sure SunEdison has the same sort of dealer lookup feature as well.

Good advice. There are many situations where you do better through an authorized dealer and this may be one of them. If a manufacturer is dependent upon dealers for distribution and/or installation, it usually doesn't behoove them and may not be permitted via contract to undercut their dealers.

[CMF]

Falling SREC Market

Hello, newbie here and first post.

I'm about a week into researching a solar panel option for my home and I am considering leasing (prepaid). As I see it (in my newbie head), one of the main advantages of leasing is that I don't have to worry about falling SREC prices; I live in Maryland. Buying only makes economic sense to me if SREC prices stay above a certain level and the process of selling SREC credits is hassle free. Can one of the more knowledgeable folks on this board comment on the lease vs by comparison in regard to the SRECs market?

For what it's worth:

I've been quoted systems of 44 to 50 panels, generating about 10kW for $46K-$50K purchase price (before rebates) and an prepaid lease of for $14K.

Thoughts? Please let me know if you need more information to render a good opinion.

Thanks,
Charles

[cebury]

As far as I know, all Sunpower dealers pay the exact same amount. Each dealer decides how much they need to charge for the equipment but all pay the same for the equipment, regardless of volume or elite/premier..etc....status.

Hmmm. So there is no advantage to being a Sunpower Elite dealer, in terms of price discounts? Any installer should be able to buy the same SP panels that SP-only Elite dealers get AND at the same rates, regardless of volume and without any commitment to sole-sourcing their brand only? Opposite what three different installers told me, but what is common knowledge vs. what SP will allow may be different. One even told me "yeah, I was surprised we started offering SP panels because we offer all kinds. SP wants you to believe they are only available via their dealers but in reality they'll sell them to anyone willing to pay the higher non-dealer rate". Perhaps I misunderstood.

[Naptown]

Hello, newbie here and first post.

I'm about a week into researching a solar panel option for my home and I am considering leasing (prepaid). As I see it (in my newbie head), one of the main advantages of leasing is that I don't have to worry about falling SREC prices; I live in Maryland. Buying only makes economic sense to me if SREC prices stay above a certain level and the process of selling SREC credits is hassle free. Can one of the more knowledgeable folks on this board comment on the lease vs by comparison in regard to the SRECs market?

For what it's worth:

I've been quoted systems of 44 to 50 panels, generating about 10kW for $46K-$50K purchase price (before rebates) and an prepaid lease of for $14K.

Thoughts? Please let me know if you need more information to render a good opinion.

Thanks,
Charles

What county do you live in and what kind of equipment are they offering.
A quick calculation of that size system could be done for about 43,000
If you live in PG or Baltimore county who have property tax credits your net cost would be less than the 14K after 3 years. Currently you can get a guaranteed SREC purchase for three years at $200 each.
At the end of three years you are down to the 14K lease price or less. And there are still 10 years of SREC'sleft to collect although at lower costs as the ACP declines.

[CMF]

Thank you, I live in Montgomery county. The proposals are for either LG, SUCCO, or MAGE panels.

Charles

[KRenn]

Hmmm. So there is no advantage to being a Sunpower Elite dealer, in terms of price discounts? Any installer should be able to buy the same SP panels that SP-only Elite dealers get AND at the same rates, regardless of volume and without any commitment to sole-sourcing their brand only? Opposite what three different installers told me, but what is common knowledge vs. what SP will allow may be different. One even told me "yeah, I was surprised we started offering SP panels because we offer all kinds. SP wants you to believe they are only available via their dealers but in reality they'll sell them to anyone willing to pay the higher non-dealer rate". Perhaps I misunderstood.

I think the certifications are more reflective of a certain quality level that the dealer has to maintain while selling their modules, I do know that pricing can vary wildly from one dealer to the next for the exact same product. This is why I'm a big fan of obtaining email quotes and deciding who actually represents the best value.

[KRenn]

Thank you, I live in Montgomery county. The proposals are for either LG, SUCCO, or MAGE panels.

Charles

All of those are very good quality modules. Mage is relatively newer to the US and though they promise a long 30 year warranty, I don't know that they have the track record to make me comfortable. Schuco is a company with a long-history that by all accounts makes terrific quality modules and LG is a known international brand that is a newcomer to solar but thus far people have been raving about their products.

[Naptown]

Thank you, I live in Montgomery county. The proposals are for either LG, SUCCO, or MAGE panels.

Charles

Montgomery just repealed their Property tax credit, So that will increase the net somewhat.
What are they proposing for inverter or inverters.
I know I can do a 10kw system in Montgomery County with black frame CNPV mono modules, Enphase for $42K

[kgregerson]

From what I've seen, Solar incentives vary by zip code, county and city even. So the cost of a prepaid leasing a 2.35kw system in one city for 20 years may be 3k but the purchase comes out 8k after rebates. But in another city its 7.5k for the 20 year lease and 12k for the purchase after all the rebates.

As for Early buyouts, Solarcity offers a PPA plan that allows buyout after 5 years its pretty much the same cost as the Lease.

Something thats important as a homeowner with someone on my roof is that I don't want any outside contractors working on it. I've seen systems built by outside contractors that allow much of the uglier parts of the system to be in full view from the street like the conduit. I know Solarcity does everything internally, and of the systems I've seen they are very visually appealling, does any other company offer the 1 stop shop solution where engineering, installers, sales, customer service, and financing, contracts are all in one company?

[KRenn]

From what I've seen, Solar incentives vary by zip code, county and city even. So the cost of a prepaid leasing a 2.35kw system in one city for 20 years may be 3k but the purchase comes out 8k after rebates. But in another city its 7.5k for the 20 year lease and 12k for the purchase after all the rebates.

As for Early buyouts, Solarcity offers a PPA plan that allows buyout after 5 years its pretty much the same cost as the Lease.

Something thats important as a homeowner with someone on my roof is that I don't want any outside contractors working on it. I've seen systems built by outside contractors that allow much of the uglier parts of the system to be in full view from the street like the conduit. I know Solarcity does everything internally, and of the systems I've seen they are very visually appealling, does any other company offer the 1 stop shop solution where engineering, installers, sales, customer service, and financing, contracts are all in one company?

I've had the opposite experience actually. The SolarCity installs out here aren't the most aesthetically appealing. They either install way too high off the roof or you've poor arrangement of the modules or they're not flashing properly and instead using weird adhesives and other nonsense. Take that into account along with 8-12 month install times or that they often won't tell you what module you'll get until after you sign a contract(try doing that at a car dealership....."Joe, you're a nice guy, I'm willing to pay $200 a month, pick out a car for me and surprise me.") and I'm not a big fan.

On top of that, their heavy use of Evergreen panels can't feel good for those who will be stuck without a warranty when these sole solar leasing entities such as SolarCity and Sungevity inevitably go out of business. So no, I'd rather deal direct with a dealer and a leasing program from a separate entity such as a manufacturer(SunPower), or a separate financial entity(SunEdison, SunCap). I have a choice about who installs on my roof when I deal with the dealers and I can do my due diligence, compare their previous work and pick which one I think will do the best job.

[kgregerson]

I've had the opposite experience actually. The SolarCity installs out here aren't the most aesthetically appealing. They either install way too high off the roof, or way too low, or they're not flashing properly and instead using weird adhesives and other nonsense. Take that into account along with 8-12 month install times or that they often won't tell you what module you'll get until after you sign a contract(try doing that at a car dealership....."Joe, you're a nice guy, I'm willing to pay $200 a month, pick out a car for me and surprise me.") and I'm not a big fan.

On top of that, their heavy use of Evergreen panels can't feel good for those who will be stuck without a warranty when these sole solar leasing entities such as SolarCity and Sungevity inevitably go out of business. So no, I'd rather deal direct with a dealer and a leasing program from a separate entity such as a manufacturer(SunPower), or a separate financial entity(SunEdison, SunCap).

Doesn't Sungevity basically deal Sunrun which is basically a bank, and isn't Solar City backed by major private investors like Google, PG&E, USBank? Along with a performance garruantee where they pay you .22 a kwhr if it doesn't perform the way they said it will.

As for install times, average 3-5 months would make sense from a certified site auditor visit, engineering plan, okay with the customer, get the permit, city inspector, then utility inspector before turning on. If it's taking 8-12 months wouldn't that mean that they were really busy, or that there was some sort of saftey issue? I can't imagine any sales person or company willingly waiting for his commission check for 8 months. They aren't gonna exactly be able to collect much more than a deposit until delivery.

Aren't evergreen warranties basically the same as Sunpower at 25 years. Same as Ying Li even. Basic differences in efficency appear to be size, and don't Thin films have the most recorded issues with them anyways? Also, aren't most Solar system issues related to the inverter or improper shading more than anything else?


Ontop of this, still no answer to my question, does any other company provide a 1 stop shop, where everything is under 1 roof? The closest to this so far is SolarCity, and even better, they aren't effected by the dropping panel prices like the brand you mention Sunpower who must be hurting with a 23 percent drop in panel prices over the last year.

[KRenn]

Doesn't Sungevity basically deal Sunrun which is basically a bank, and isn't Solar City backed by major private investors like Google, PG&E, USBank? Along with a performance garruantee where they pay you .22 a kwhr if it doesn't perform the way they said it will.

1. Name me one of those companies that is publicy traded?


Oh yeah, none of them are. Solar City, Sungevity and SunRun are all essentially financial companies that are entirely dependent on the leasing model at this point. Take away the incentives that make leasing available, which could be as soon as the next presidential election, and I'm not betting on any of those companies making it in their current form.

As for install times, average 3-5 months would make sense from a certified site auditor visit, engineering plan, okay with the customer, get the permit, city inspector, then utility inspector before turning on. If it's taking 8-12 months wouldn't that mean that they were really busy, or that there was some sort of saftey issue? I can't imagine any sales person or company willingly waiting for his commission check for 8 months. They aren't gonna exactly be able to collect much more than a deposit until delivery.

It all depends on the jurisdiction, for some companies its a matter of cash flow, for Solar City its an organizational issue. If I can have my system installed in 2-3 months from a local dealer or wait 8-12 months for Solar City to install an as-of-yet-to-be-named panel for a higher price, why on earth would I do that?

Aren't evergreen warranties basically the same as Sunpower at 25 years. Same as Ying Li even. Basic differences in efficency appear to be size, and don't Thin films have the most recorded issues with them anyways? Also, aren't most Solar system issues related to the inverter or improper shading more than anything else?

Evergreen, the same company that basically went bankrupt and is now solely a Chinese entity vs SunPower who is backed by the 5th or 6th biggest company in the world.......who do you think a reasonable person would put their bet with on being able to actually guarantee that warranty? The company who went bankrupt? Think Solyndra has many wannabe investors nowadays?

Ontop of this, still no answer to my question, does any other company provide a 1 stop shop, where everything is under 1 roof? The closest to this so far is SolarCity, and even better, they aren't effected by the dropping panel prices like the brand you mention Sunpower who must be hurting with a 23 percent drop in panel prices over the last year.

Sure, there's other leasing outfits that provide the same thing, but once again, I can get better panels than SolarCity provides, I can get better prices than SolarCity provides, I can get faster installs than SolarCity provides and a local dealer will tell me exactly what their installation process entails, so no, I'm not sold on SolarCity at all.


If they don't have the best price, and they don't have the fastest installs and they sure don't use the best equipment(Yingli and Evergreen vs SunPower and Sanyo)...why would I choose them?

[russ]

isn't Solar City backed by major private investors like Google, PG&E, USBank?

Is that as is partly owned or just doing business with? Very different things.

A couple of years back PG&E signed an agreement with some company to buy power from panels in space at a competitive rate. Big deal as PG&E knew it wasn't going to happen and they made about a zillion greenie points by signing a meaningless piece of paper. Absolute worst case they had an additional power supply.

[kgregerson]

1. Name me one of those companies that is publicy traded?


Oh yeah, none of them are. Solar City, Sungevity and SunRun are all essentially financial companies that are entirely dependent on the leasing model at this point. Take away the incentives that make leasing available, which could be as soon as the next presidential election, and I'm not betting on any of those companies making it in their current form.

So, a quick look at the news pages

Bloomberg

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-10-03/sunpower-to-revise-forecast-on-challenging-market-conditions-.html

[quote]

[russ]

Love the referral arrangement - otherwise known as the screw your buddy program.

I suggest you sign on the dotted line today - your mind is made up.

I, like many others, don't like lease arrangements or the entire concept of looting the treasury for the benefit of a few.