I Can't See How Leasing Doesn't Beat Purchasing, Can You?

[vinniethePVtech]

A sunpower authorized dealer will not quote the same as sunpower. Secondly your not understanding the secret to pricing structure.
I consult on all levels of construction. If you want to pay higher rates under a lease thats your perogative. If you want to spend stupid money for rates that shouldnt run you higher than $5 per watt that's your perogative.
I will also Let you know starting January first the lending structure is going to change and get more more affordable because of Chinese competitors.
If you think for a moment a lease is a bargain wait until January when contractors including sunpower will charge 10% less on the cost per watt.

[Ian S]

A sunpower authorized dealer will not quote the same as sunpower. Secondly your not understanding the secret to pricing structure.
Feel free to look up my license 937823. I consult on all levels of construction. If you want to pay higher rates under a lease thats your perogative. If you want to spend stupid money for rates that shouldnt run you higher than $5 per watt that's your perogative.
I will also Let you know starting January first the lending structure is going to change and get more more affordable because of Chinese competitors.
If you think for a moment a lease is a bargain wait until January when contractors including sunpower will charge 10% less on the cost per watt.

I just went to the Sunpower website and as far as I can tell, if you want a Sunpower system, you go through one of their dealers. So how exactly do you get a quote directly from Sunpower?

[Franz]

I just went to the Sunpower website and as far as I can tell, if you want a Sunpower system, you go through one of their dealers. So how exactly do you get a quote directly from Sunpower?

Seems like it's easy. I just went to the site and got a quick quote of $15,659 to purchase a 3.22kWh system, calculated to save me $78/month (almost exactly the same as Sungevity's $79/month). Same system with a $0 down 25 year lease would be $131/month, far in excess of my $105 LADWP bill and in contrast to Sungevity's $0 down $62/month 20 year deal. Of course Sunpower's quote is not binding and they want to send a person out to me. Perhaps I'll say yes. Ian, you must have been thinking about something like this when you said you can't get a quote directly from Sunpower.

In any case, that's an enormously larger bill to pay. Comparing apples to apples (except 20 years vs 25), I go from saving $16/month with Sungevity to paying $53/month with Sunpower. That seems frankly non-competitive to me.

And I don't think Sunpower is going to charge me 10% less in January due to an influx of Chinese panels. Isn't their whole business built around their own panels? Vinnie, do they, or do you think they going to, source them from China and somehow get them cheaper in a few months? Or do they use their nice panels only on the "Max" system, not their "High" system? That could explain it. But the "Max" system would tack on another $10/month. Ugh.

Franz

[vinniethePVtech]

And I don't think Sunpower is going to charge me 10% less in January due to an influx of Chinese panels. Isn't their whole business built around their own panels? Vinnie, do they, or do you think they going to, source them from China and somehow get them cheaper in a few months? Or do they use their nice panels only on the "Max" system, not their "High" system? That could explain it. But the "Max" system would tack on another $10/month. Ugh.

Franz

You may believe what you want. For legal ramifications I cannot explain any further. Come January there will be changes to leasing that are more advantageous to home owners.
As of now the fact remains under lease home owners are paying per watt what the commercial sector pays. It takes industrial equipment and union labor to justify those rates.
Starting January things will change.
That is all I can tell consumers.
You can work your authorized dealers within .50 per watt, nothing to significant but it can be done.
The rates offered by authorized dealers are a cushion which are provided on commercial installation rates.
I will say no more.

[Franz]

That was quintessential Vinnie-ness, right there.

Can I make any sense of it? No. Well, nothing other than that whatever I've said or been upbeat about is wrong and unfortunate.

I'd love home lessee (and purchaser) options to be better after January 1, but i don't know if my LADWP rebate is going to last that long and that rebate is a lot more than any possible 10% reduction in solar panel cost (for possibly inferior Chinese panels). If there's any other magic dust due to be scattered on residential options, I would love to know more.

Franz

[vinniethePVtech]

That was quintessential Vinnie-ness, right there.

Can I make any sense of it? No. Well, nothing other than that whatever I've said or been upbeat about is wrong and unfortunate.

I'd love home lessee (and purchaser) options to be better after January 1, but i don't know if my LADWP rebate is going to last that long and that rebate is a lot more than any possible 10% reduction in solar panel cost (for possibly inferior Chinese panels). If there's any other magic dust due to be scattered on residential options, I would love to know more.

Franz

The purpose of leasing was not to be fair. It was meant to disguise where money is to be spent and allocated for the purpose that all business parties (entities) that venture into the arrangement may profit.
As a contractor I'm highly experienced, not only in business law, but as well in project management fundamentals.
I'm asking all consumers to use due diligence to research the true aspects of leasing to realize the investment is not worth the reward. In the end it's like possessing a vehicle worth half it's value.

[cebury]

I just went to the Sunpower website and as far as I can tell, if you want a Sunpower system, you go through one of their dealers. So how exactly do you get a quote directly from Sunpower?

Ian, you can also buy Sunpower panels from NON Sunpower dealers. Well, maybe better said, from non-dedicated "Elite" dealers. They inflate their prices to the non-elite dealers. Three different installers offered me the choice of Sunpower OR other Chinese panels. The Sunpower only dealers prices were much, much lower. As in $1300-$1800 per kW DC lower for the exact same panels. I was told they'll sell the panels to any installers (in-turn, customers) willing to pay that higher rate.

After saying all that, was the purpose of your post trying to clarify the confusing line from vinnie.

[cebury]

The purpose of leasing was not to be fair. It was meant to disguise where money is to be spent and allocated for the purpose that all business parties (entities) that venture into the arrangement may profit.
As a contractor I'm highly experienced, not only in business law, but as well in project management fundamentals.
I'm asking all consumers to fo due diligence to research the true aspects of leasing to realize the investment is not worth the reward. In the end it's like possessing a vehicle worth half it's value.

Vinnie it's hard for people (it appears, not just me) to understand what you're saying in half your posts. Even your better worded posts, with complete sentences like above, are one/more of these premises: 1) trust me, for this reason: (my license #, my experience, etc), 2) something obvious: <xyz entity> is trying to make money off you, or do your due diligence, and now 4) I'll share some secret knowledge with you that I'm privvy to but can't explain to you why or what's really going on. But worse yet, you only reply to a portion of a post directed to you, the part that is easiest to poke at, rather than engaging the most difficult part which is really the "meat" of the matter... that takes thought or time to explain carefully so it makes sense, that which would truly give you credibility debating/sharing your point.

[Ian S]

Ian, you can also buy Sunpower panels from NON Sunpower dealers. Well, maybe better said, from non-dedicated "Elite" dealers. They inflate their prices to the non-elite dealers. Three different installers offered me the choice of Sunpower OR other Chinese panels. The Sunpower only dealers prices were much, much lower. As in $1300-$1800 per kW DC lower for the exact same panels. I was told they'll sell the panels to any installers (in-turn, customers) willing to pay that higher rate.

After saying all that, was the purpose of your post trying to clarify the confusing line from vinnie.

Well, I am confused by Vinnie's comments. I really haven't a clue what he's talking about. It sure doesn't sound like the prepaid lease arrangement I've chosen. I've been quoted a 6.9 kW system using Sunpower e18/230 panels for about a buck a watt prepaid lease. The same system purchased would have been close to $30,000 cause I got that quote too from the same place. Tax credits/rebates, etc would have brought it down to a bit under $15,000. That's a lot more than the prepaid lease even after the under $1000 buyout after year 6. I'm sure not waiting until January in the hope that Vinnie's pony shows up.

[Franz]

Chris wrote, very provocatively, that Vinnie's posts were like this:

1) trust me, for this reason: (my license #, my experience, etc), 2) something obvious: <xyz entity> is trying to make money off you, or do your due diligence, and now 4) I'll share some secret knowledge with you that I'm privvy to but can't explain to you why or what's really going on.

But, Chris, what was your and Vinnie's secret 3)?! If I could just know that, I'm sure I would be able to save thousands and win this giant game of energy poker!

Franz

[Ian S]

Seems like it's easy. I just went to the site and got a quick quote of $15,659 to purchase a 3.22kWh system, calculated to save me $78/month (almost exactly the same as Sungevity's $79/month). Same system with a $0 down 25 year lease would be $131/month, far in excess of my $105 LADWP bill and in contrast to Sungevity's $0 down $62/month 20 year deal. Of course Sunpower's quote is not binding and they want to send a person out to me. Perhaps I'll say yes. Ian, you must have been thinking about something like this when you said you can't get a quote directly from Sunpower.

In any case, that's an enormously larger bill to pay. Comparing apples to apples (except 20 years vs 25), I go from saving $16/month with Sungevity to paying $53/month with Sunpower. That seems frankly non-competitive to me.

And I don't think Sunpower is going to charge me 10% less in January due to an influx of Chinese panels. Isn't their whole business built around their own panels? Vinnie, do they, or do you think they going to, source them from China and somehow get them cheaper in a few months? Or do they use their nice panels only on the "Max" system, not their "High" system? That could explain it. But the "Max" system would tack on another $10/month. Ugh.

Franz

The purchase price doesn't sound out of line but the monthly lease sounds wacky. I mean how could you possibly sell that to someone? All the leases and salesmen I've talked to always showed numbers for a zero down lease that combined with the new electric bill added up to less than your existing bill. What about a prepaid lease - did you get a number on that? I suspect the person they would have come out is one of their dealers. Wonder if you'd do differently going through a dealer?

[vinniethePVtech]

Well, I am confused by Vinnie's comments. I really haven't a clue what he's talking about. It sure doesn't sound like the prepaid lease arrangement I've chosen. I've been quoted a 6.9 kW system using Sunpower e18/230 panels for about a buck a watt prepaid lease. The same system purchased would have been close to $30,000 cause I got that quote too from the same place. Tax credits/rebates, etc would have brought it down to a bit under $15,000. That's a lot more than the prepaid lease even after the under $1000 buyout after year 6. I'm sure not waiting until January in the hope that Vinnie's pony shows up.

Vinnie it's hard for people (it appears, not just me) to understand what you're saying in half your posts. Even your better worded posts, with complete sentences like above, are one/more of these premises: 1) trust me, for this reason: (my license #, my experience, etc), 2) something obvious: <xyz entity> is trying to make money off you, or do your due diligence, and now 4) I'll share some secret knowledge with you that I'm privvy to but can't explain to you why or what's really going on. But worse yet, you only reply to a portion of a post directed to you, the part that is easiest to poke at, rather than engaging the most difficult part which is really the "meat" of the matter... that takes thought or time to explain carefully so it makes sense, that which would truly give you credibility debating/sharing your point.

I don't see what the confusion is, PPA's are a set price on selling power between the contractor and the bank. Because the units being sold on the residential level are smaller the mark up is much, much higher. Typically the rate for LABOR, and Material is increased at about a 30% margin.
Here's an example. Price out the system, tack on $3000 for a 6.4Kwh DC system and tell me what your price would be.

$3500 sunny boy inverter SMA 7000US with disconnect/combiner
$999.99 basically $1000 Sunpower E19 230 X28 (6400) watts $28,000.00 ( non authorized dealer price )
conduit and conductor $120
Breaker $40
Permit $90

PV shipment $100 freight shipping

Out the door $34850 ($5.44 per watt), suntech or yingli substitute for PV ($4.89 per watt) we will focus on sunpower PV only.
Federal tax credit $10,455
(2%) local tax credit, not in all counties ($697)

Total cost $23,698

This is a purchase price not a PPA that I sell


Now add 30% to everything material and labor and you get a new PPA price, thats how the industry sell solar on leases. what the banks and contractor are after is the Federal tax credit so in the end you the consumer pays for a system without getting the tax credit and it is a hidden cost in your price per watt.
The bank then charges extrmely high rates which I believe like my brother was given a rate of 21% so was Cebury. Horrible purchase in my opinion.

I failed to ADD MC 4 connectors 8 @ $6.36 each

[Ian S]

I don't see what the confusion is, PPA's are a set price on selling power between the contractor and the bank.

Well, maybe this is the source of confusion. IIRC, PPA stands for Power Purchase Agreement. That is not what I'm talking about. With my upfront single payment (prepaid lease), I'm entitled to every kWh of electricity my system produces for 20 years unless I decide to buy out the lease earlier. What I produce vs what I consume is entirely between me and my utility via a net metering arrangement. After the lease starts and I've made my single payment, I have no more payments to the contractor or bank or anyone else besides the utility - and only then if I consume more electricity than I produce - for the duration of the lease. I'm not involved with who gets the tax credits or rebates or depreciation benefits: I pay a set amount upfront - no additional payments unless I opt to buy out after year 6 - and I have the full benefit of what the system produces for 20 years.

[vinniethePVtech]

Well, maybe this is the source of confusion. IIRC, PPA stands for Power Purchase Agreement. That is not what I'm talking about. With my upfront single payment (prepaid lease), I'm entitled to every kWh of electricity my system produces for 20 years unless I decide to buy out the lease earlier.

Its still a lease. the numbers and percentages get moved around to show different monthly payments. The end result is the contractor wants 30% and the bank wants its high interest. Lease agreements may work for a small group of people, this small group is typically sole proprietors and corprate filing 1040's that get the real benefits of leasing, as the interest is a write off.

The way solar was suppose to work was to buy a system per watt until the investment could pay itself off in under 5 years or BETTER. If not the ROI is not worth it because when you look at the reports of economic inflation, the rising cost of energy. In order to pay out for the energy you are still paying a locked in return on bank interest. I don't get why people do this. In california alone the rise in electrical utilities spikes 6% on average. In 5 years alone that's 30% more than what your initial return started off from the time of energizing the system. The united states is averaged to to spike 25% in energy cost over the next 10 years.

Leases do not explain to the consumer, The rising costs of energy when you get into an agreement. They just explain CEC AC wghich doesn't really mean anything because that number depriciates annually as the cost of energy goes up annually. Couple that with your interest payments, and you will never be able to buy your lease out on an affordable level. They are put in place so you will continually make payments, the bar is set very low.

[Mike90250]

Lease vs Purchase
Lets use something other than mystery solar panels. Like a car lease. You select a car. You pay monthly - about the same as purchase payments. You have mileage penalties, scratch & dent... all sorts of "conditions". At the end, you walk away, and have nothing, except you had 3 years in a fancy ride. Lease company sells the car and makes more $$ If you did a purchase, you have a car YOU can sell or do whatever with, or drive another 3 years w/ no payments. Maybe a lease works ok for a business expense, but for a ordinary person, it's just money that's gone with nothing in the end.

And I'm not a salesman, so I can't spin it as well as they do.