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  • #16
    Originally posted by JRqwertyui View Post
    if the annual output is the same (according to the tool)...
    For the two runs, what are the panel orientations? Does the LG site plan have panels on sub optimal roof face, while the Panasonic plan gets more power south facing?

    ​​​​​
    CS6P-260P/SE3000 - http://tiny.cc/ed5ozx

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    • #17
      Both LG/Pani configurations are east/west configuration, neither are south facing... on 5-12 upper roof, two strings.... 4% shading...
      Last edited by JRqwertyui; 06-22-2017, 01:25 PM.

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      • #18
        I noticed the contract the vendor wants me to sign states nothing about a performance guarantee, Its all about protecting/paying the vendor/installer. The only power guarantee is from Panasonic and it looks like a standard form. thus, when the installer is done, and the total output of the arrays are not producing what PVWatts/SE tool states, what paper can I refer to that states they should come and repair/replace/reconfigure, etc... should I kindly insist that something appear in the signed contract with regards to overall power output barring shade, angles, TOD... etc...
        Last edited by JRqwertyui; 06-24-2017, 02:18 PM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by JRqwertyui View Post
          I noticed the contract the vendor wants me to sign states nothing about a performance guarantee, Its all about protecting/paying the vendor/installer. The only power guarantee is from Panasonic and it looks like a standard form. thus, when the installer is done, and the total output of the arrays are not producing what PVWatts/SE tool states, what paper can I refer to that states they should come and repair/replace/reconfigure, etc... should I kindly insist that something appear in the signed contract with regards to overall power output barring shade, angles, TOD... etc...
          Of all the stuff to worry about, performance warranties are about the least important. They are pretty much worthless, and anyone who knows anything about PV will tell you. Very low bar to pass in terms of annual output, more holes than Swiss cheese. they are a cynical joke used as a marketing tool and not much good for anything else besides toilet paper.

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          • #20
            J.P.M. Thanks for your reply... ok, I'll let it pass....
            I'm also purchasing SE's consumption meter device because I want to easily view consumption S1-200-2-MTR240-S so that I can visualize both actual production, consumption and contributions.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by JRqwertyui View Post
              J.P.M. Thanks for your reply... ok, I'll let it pass....
              I'm also purchasing SE's consumption meter device because I want to easily view consumption S1-200-2-MTR240-S so that I can visualize both actual production, consumption and contributions.
              One of the best tools I know of to use less of something, and using less energy is the best way to energy cost effectiveness, is to measure the results of your efforts every day, be it energy use, water use, weight loss, whatever. As long as it's done approaching something of a frequent (daily ?) and consistent interval, and recorded in a way that allows easy visualization of progress or direction, things will improve.

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              • #22
                So, after a long learning, multiple vendors, ~10 quotes, multiple posts on these great boards with questions regarding everything from sizing the system, to how to handle bids, to the various manufactures, its come down to signing on the bottom line with a vendor who I've done extensive due diligence on, via BBB, black diamond, yelp, solarreviews, reference calling (supplied by them)...

                I wanted to share bits of the contract which I'm thinking of refuting based upon them overly protecting themselves. I'm curious if the forum has the same thoughts.

                Bits that rubbed me the wrong way:

                Point #1 (Changes In The Work): Contract states (paraphrasing): That if the Owner (me) or any public body or inspector directs any mods or additions to the work contract. If both I and the contractors (them) agree = Change Order. If I then don't agree on the price of said change, then their actual cost, of all labor, equipment, subs, and material, plus a contractors fee of %20 shall be the change in contract price.

                So my understanding is: if a change, for example, is requested by the inspector, priced out by the vendor, and I don't agree with the assessed price, I'm STUCK (replace "ST" with "F" & end with "ed"). They will assess %20 more of the total price of the entire solar installation. Backed into corner.

                Point #2 (Owners responsibility): Contract states: "...I must provide restroom facilities..."
                So I get it, they're working on my house and in the past I've always extended the courtesy, but really, stated in the contract! I'm obligated for them to use my washroom, WTH !! I'll have to go re-read my homeowners where I recall not letting contractor's use my bathrooms, because an injury to them (slip on bathroom floor for example) becomes my liability.

                Point #3 (Owners Responsibility): "...Contractor is not responsible personal property, carpets, driveway, sidewalks, patios, lawns, shrubs, etc."
                It actually states, "etc..." So if they roll their trucks up on my driveway and crack the pavement, or ruin my landscaping. Tough luck, go claim it on my homeowners.! Yet they have a ten year warranty on work they perform (roof, wiring, installation...)

                Point #4 (Delays): "...Owner recognizes that PV panels are in short supply and may delay the project and/or increase the cost of the project..."
                Because of their supply chain issues, my cost increases? WTH

                Point #5 (Plans and Specs): "...They will only pay for permits costs under $500. Overage is covered by me..."
                Ok, I get it. Still how much could a permit cost (total price of the system is $29k rounded up.)

                Point #6 (Mechanics lean): "...And contractor, subs, laborer, supplier, or other person or entity who helps to improve your property, but is NOT paid for their work or supplies, has the right to place a lien on your home, land, and sue me in court..."
                Really, if they screw their suppliers, and workers, I get dragged to court, slapped around and my house used as collateral. They have 90 days to file.

                Clearly this contract protects them, very little protection for the buyer (me). Do I have any negotiation room with them to alter their Terms and Conditions? Has anyone attempted to change their T&Cs with a vendor? How do I protect myself from clearly terms that protect them...

                P.S. I decided to go with 28 Pani 330s w/ P400, SE 7600-USS2, ironRidge mounts, Consumption monitor, and Critter Guards, for 2.99/w pre tax (not including last two components which I added on last minute). What sent me over the edge was Pani's new 25y product warranty on their panels... lets hope for no delamination.
                Last edited by JRqwertyui; 07-15-2017, 02:57 AM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by JRqwertyui View Post
                  So, after a long learning, multiple vendors, ~10 quotes, multiple posts on these great boards with questions regarding everything from sizing the system, to how to handle bids, to the various manufactures, its come down to signing on the bottom line with a vendor who I've done extensive due diligence on, via BBB, black diamond, yelp, solarreviews, reference calling (supplied by them)...

                  I wanted to share bits of the contract which I'm thinking of refuting based upon them overly protecting themselves. I'm curious if the forum has the same thoughts.

                  Bits that rubbed me the wrong way:

                  Point #1 (Changes In The Work): Contract states (paraphrasing): That if the Owner (me) or any public body or inspector directs any mods or additions to the work contract. If both I and the contractors (them) agree = Change Order. If I then don't agree on the price of said change, then their actual cost, of all labor, equipment, subs, and material, plus a contractors fee of %20 shall be the change in contract price.

                  So my understanding is: if a change, for example, is requested by the inspector, priced out by the vendor, and I don't agree with the assessed price, I'm STUCK (replace "ST" with "F" & end with "ed"). They will assess %20 more of the total price of the entire solar installation. Backed into corner.

                  Point #2 (Owners responsibility): Contract states: "...I must provide restroom facilities..."
                  So I get it, they're working on my house and in the past I've always extended the courtesy, but really, stated in the contract! I'm obligated for them to use my washroom, WTH !! I'll have to go re-read my homeowners where I recall not letting contractor's use my bathrooms, because an injury to them (slip on bathroom floor for example) becomes my liability.

                  Point #3 (Owners Responsibility): "...Contractor is not responsible personal property, carpets, driveway, sidewalks, patios, lawns, shrubs, etc."
                  It actually states, "etc..." So if they roll their trucks up on my driveway and crack the pavement, or ruin my landscaping. Tough luck, go claim it on my homeowners.! Yet they have a ten year warranty on work they perform (roof, wiring, installation...)

                  Point #4 (Delays): "...Owner recognizes that PV panels are in short supply and may delay the project and/or increase the cost of the project..."
                  Because of their supply chain issues, my cost increases? WTH

                  Point #5 (Plans and Specs): "...They will only pay for permits costs under $500. Overage is covered by me..."
                  Ok, I get it. Still how much could a permit cost (total price of the system is $29k rounded up.)

                  Point #6 (Mechanics lean): "...And contractor, subs, laborer, supplier, or other person or entity who helps to improve your property, but is NOT paid for their work or supplies, has the right to place a lien on your home, land, and sue me in court..."
                  Really, if they screw their suppliers, and workers, I get dragged to court, slapped around and my house used as collateral. They have 90 days to file.

                  Clearly this contract protects them, very little protection for the buyer (me). Do I have any negotiation room with them to alter their Terms and Conditions? Has anyone attempted to change their T&Cs with a vendor? How do I protect myself from clearly terms that protect them...

                  P.S. I decided to go with 28 Pani 330s w/ P400, SE 7600-USS2, ironRidge mounts, Consumption monitor, and Critter Guards, for 2.99/w pre tax (not including last two components which I added on last minute). What sent me over the edge was Pani's new 25y product warranty on their panels... lets hope for no delamination.
                  Back up a bit. You change all the terms before you sign. That's called negotiating. Once you sign, you have no more negotiating power or leverage. Before you sign, everything is negotiable except maybe the mechanics lien which, unless I'm mistaken, is pretty std. and allowable under CA law.

                  Aside from that, it's a lousy contract. I'd not sign any contract that included a lot of the stuff you list. After that, and NOMB, but if it was me, I'd seriously rethink doing business with any vendor who'd present a contract with all that low class crap in it.

                  Did you give everyone a written request for proposal (RFP) that included all the stuff you wanted and learned ? You won't get what you don't identify, and then ask for what you want, and then negotiate for it. One purpose of the RFP is as a negotiating tool. Get all negotiated terms in writing and added or stricken from the contract. Verbal assurances are not worth the paper they're written on.

                  While I was at it, I'd make sure their workman's comp. is in order. Call the state.

                  CA or other contractors comments could be vary helpful to you here.

                  Caveat Emptor.

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                  • #24
                    #1 i read as he has a right to his costs plus 20% profit ofmwhatever he was "forced" to do by the AHJ to complete the job. Why woild he be forced? Because he doesnt get paid the remainder of whatever payment plan is outlined in contract until ahj approval. He would have to take you to small claims to collect on that change order and would use this language to collect.

                    Realistically, he should know all the AHJ requirements for his area and there shouldnt be any surprises and his bid should include all costs and permit fees to be aspproved. But he sees the contract provisions arent for if things go well, they are for when things out of the ordinary happen.

                    #6 is probably already an ability of subcontractor suppliers whether you realize it or not pursuant to their rights. Weird, huh. Roofers can get it all the time, esp. new ones buying supplies from established local supply houses. I had that happen to me a couple reroofa ago and had a long interesting talk with the supplier about it, who had nothing but the absolute mostmpositive things to say about my roofer paying his bills early. Ive also been a sub on a job i did 100% of work on where main collected payment, then proceeded to declare bankruptcy without paying me - not a fun position to be in. The client was pissed off as well.

                    Only some of the other points that seem reasonable are still unprofessional and would absolutely put a bad taste in my mouth as well, a strong crap taste..

                    What woild i do if i really wanted this vendor before i saw the contract?

                    Cross out the sections you dont like, initial each paragraph change and tell the vendor, in a reasonable manner, he was your first choice as a vendor but only if the provisions are removed. You arent there to screw him and understand things can happen, and when they do you expect a reasonable solution offered, etc. If not, you have to move on to your next choice, who isnt far behind. Get his signature at the bottom of the ckntract and inits next to all of yours.

                    Yes you can absolutely modify the contract right there before signing. If his contract is completely one sided against you, also strike out anything it states in the Entire Agreement section.
                    Last edited by cebury; 07-15-2017, 04:02 PM. Reason: Forgot the ljne to get his inits on contract

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Gotta treat it as a major construction project

                      rent a porta-potty for a week. Peace of mind, and if you catch them peeing in the bushes and not the outhouse, they pay for the entire porta-potty costs

                      Changes by AHJ parts and labor only, it's the contractors mistake. Contractors mistake to fix - he eats it all. Change you initiate (route the conduit here, not in front of the window) P&L +5% or whatever you like, it IS an add on. And sometimes in construction, you spot a time/material/labor saving change = No extra charge,

                      Schedule progress payments, at each inspection point (rails on joists, roof sealed, panels installed, wiring complete) get lien releases as each delivery is made, but you have to take off work to be there.

                      Verify the insurance of them & subs before they enter your site.

                      Add a time / penalty deadline Let them set reasonable time frame, and hold them to it. maybe you can waive parts if there is a valid delay (warehouse fire....)
                      Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                      || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                      || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                      solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                      gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

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                      • #26
                        They sent me proof of their worker's comp and employer's liability = 1M E.L. each accident, 1M = E.L. disease-ea employee, 1M E.L. disease-policy limit. 190k/1k DED contractors property. 1K contractors tools/equipment non-owned.

                        Partially non comprehensible to me, the average layman... can someone translate...

                        They stated via email, they don't sub out work...

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                        • #27
                          1 million employers liability. One is for injury frim accident, the other is for disease.

                          Since youre vendor is in CA, Id trust the Contractors licensing board site over a photocopy proof:

                          https://www2.cslb.ca.gov/OnlineServi...ckLicense.aspx

                          Enter the business name. Click the license link of your vendor. It will show you their licenses. Down near bottom is the info for Bonds and Workers Comp Coverage and even as valuable is looking at the history.

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