Do you get a bill at the end of the year for having solar panels?

[solar_dave]

Well I am a capitalist first and a green second, For me the rebates & tax credits made perfect sense as it aligned the costs to provide ROI in 4 years. As the local utility has applied for 11% rate hike that ROI may even be shorter.

The average guy in America pays little or no tax. The blue collar guy pays exactly the same rate for electric as I do, that is how services generally work. Zero down lease plans exist for those that can't float the full amount as does other financing means and they generally will reduce the overall cost of power (given reasonable terms usually requiring a decent credit score). Bad credit score is a self inflicted condition.

I would love to see any alternative proposal you might have that could allow anyone to go for this kind of system. I only see that I was labeled as Criminal for taking advantage of the current system. Granted the rates and tariffs state that I am not a firm power provider, but if I were I would get paid a higher rate for every watt driven to the grid. I certainly don't understand how a good RE program digs a hole for anyone, I don't get preferential rates for my power like many RE programs, in fact I get basically a wholesale rate for any year end excess and only offset standard rate plans with my generation and usage inside my meter.

SO lets look at a typical 8kW home solar system, here installed it currently is under $6 a watt. That would be under $48,000 but lets use $6.

(I was fortunate and got $3 a watt from my utility before they lowered the rebate)
Utility rebate currently here is $2.15 a watt = $17,200 Balance $30,800
30% FED tax credit on $30,800 = $9,240 Balance $21,560
$1000 State tax credit - balance $20,560.
Now assume he has the $20K cash, and pays an annual power bill of $4000 which is pretty typical here. 5 year break even, not so bad. The trick is he has to make enough to pay taxes to make the credits work. OK so the price of a decent used car these days.

The power company & the PUC can do what ever it needs to to generate the peak load needs of it's customers and set rates for TOU to reflect that usage/cost, or alternatively one can opt for standard flat rate which is generally more expensive overall. If my utility and the PUC is satisfied that non firm solar can provide them relief on that peak generating capacity, they should help to make that happen, it is in their best interest to do so. Using California as a comparison for common sense in anything is just foolish. Hell they use sprinklers on the freeways in the desert.

Here in AZ it is almost silly to think about adding another power plant just to cover peak loads when solar will do the job. Small solar make sense here as solar radiance it pretty high all through the year. In fact I think my utility is one of the most progressive in using large solar as a centralize generating capacity which fits nicely in to a system that requires pretty big peak midday loading. Once the capital expenditures are done, the fueling is virtually free. Talk about nuclear, we have it here too in the Palo Verde plant and the cost per watt is very favorable, however there is a problem, the waste costs are not known or included, talk about a ticking time bomb. Basically I would be a strong proponent of nuclear if that problem had a safe solution. I know the French reprocess (which has had problems like water table pollution and NIMBY), I know we have tried waste isolation pilots like Yucca mountain, and the salt formation in New Mexico (WIPP), still both non starter solutions. Alternatives? I see none.

If the blue collar guy wants power he has the same privileges that I do, but I can't be concerned that he can afford anything, that is Not My Problem. He should take a second job if taking advantage of the credits and rebates means that much to him. If I was worried about that I would handing dollars out to every idiot that bought an overpriced house on a zero down mortgage. Come to think of it I do with all the Fed bailouts. That blue collar guy should align his cost with his funds as all of us must do. If he is living beyond his means, that is self inflicted, it is a matter of priorities. For the truly indigent, most utilities have some provision for power with them at reduced rates and I suspect I subside that as well.

I am glad you have an opinion on the subject, I just don't agree with it.

[Sunking]

I only see that I was labeled as Criminal for taking advantage of the current system. .

Who said tou are the Criminal? It is the Govrnment robbing us and future generations.

If my utility and the PUC is satisfied that non firm solar can provide them relief on that peak generating capacity, they should help to make that happen, it is in their best interest to do so. Using California as a comparison for common sense in anything is just foolish. Hell they use sprinklers on the freeways in the desert..

Ok you here is the meat. Solar can only shave peak demand. It does absolutely nothing for the base load, (the other 18 hours in a day the sun does not shine,), or when the clouds roll in.

Utilites are making a huge windfall profit (dividends) off solar PV systems. They use your and public moneyto build out solar PV system. They have absolutely no vested interest or responsibilty. All the expense and maintenace is on your back.

The power companies in today's climate will not build power plants as their are too many regulations, hoops to jump through,and NOT IN BACK YARD mentality. So instead of re-investing a portion of their profits to build out power plants and infrastructure to meet furture needs, they pay themselves a nice dividend to themselves and stock holders.

In the mean time the base load continues to grow which RE cannot contribute one single watt hour. This is what causes California, Spain, and Germeny lop sided imports. When the shoe finnaly drops and the utilities can no longer meet demands, they will simply say we told you so, and now caugh up the money for us to build power plnts you deprived us of doing in the past. The electric companies are in a Win-Win situation we created for them.

[crxvfr]

You guys make it really hard for me to keep my mouth shut.

There is so much messed up and worth ranting about.

@Russ

Personally I'm shooting for BBA. I'm building my own system so I will know at least how it is supposed to work, and expecting low efficiency, so I'm overkilling with panels, ...not much quantity and expensive. My goals are low and I plan to achieve them.

[Mike90250]

The average guy in America pays little or no tax. The blue collar guy pays exactly the same rate for electric as I do, that is how services generally work.

Woha ! I guess I'm above average, 'cause I pay a boatload.

[solar_dave]

Woha ! I guess I'm above average, 'cause I pay a boatload.

Yep me to, more than my fair share I am afraid, that is why I have no qualms in taking advantage of some tax relief sent my way. Running the numbers make it pretty much a no brainer.

@ Sunking
BTW my utility has huge generation, they have to to keep up with the peak, if solar can trim those peaks and keep them from building another carbon fueled power plant they do have a vested interest also @ $3.00 a watt rebate I suggest they do have a vested interest in my solar system. Granted I have to maintain the overall system, but with quality components my risk is pretty low. No free lunch I am afraid, oh yeah after year 4 there is!

Actually my utility has 2 larger solar projects in the works that use molten salt to carry over generation to darkness and cloudy days, which are few and far between. Arizona, Nevada and desert California are the Saudi Arabia of solar energy, huge tracks of land that is of low value near major metropolitan centers, large amounts of solar radiance.

[Sunking]

@ Sunking
BTW my utility has huge generation, they have to to keep up with the peak, if solar can trim those peaks and keep them from building another carbon fueled power plant they do have a vested interest also @ $3.00 a watt rebate I suggest they do have a vested interest in my solar system.

Arizona Public Service correct? The $3 per watt they pay you is not their funds, it is your neighbors money. APS collects it from rate payers, puts it into a interest bearing account for which they receive and keep dividends, then payout as claims are made against the fund.

[trbizwiz]

Arizona Public Service correct? The $3 per watt they pay you is not their funds, it is your neighbors money. APS collects it from rate payers, puts it into a interest bearing account for which they receive and keep dividends, then payout as claims are made against the fund.

One thing to keep in perspective is that EVERY utility provider needs more energy every year. America uses more energy each year than the year previous. In southwest Missouri, they spent years petitioning for tax dollars to pay in part for a new coal fired addition to the current generating plant. They did finally get it passed and it is supposed to be one of the LAST 3 coal fired plants being built in the US. I don't know if they aren't allowed to build any more, or if there is no desire to build any more.
That being said, the utility has a vested interest in that utility. They are paying dollars to build it. I would guess that the cost to build it, staff it and operate it, repair it in addition to any tax dollars used to fund it probably doesn't fall too far from the $2 per watt they would be required to pay for a private solar array to one of their customers.
The energy generated from a 2 KW system should average 300kwh per month or 72,000 over 20 years (that enphase system of walts that is underperforming at 130 watts was at 86 kwh in 7 days thats 344 kwh per month or 82,560 kwh over 20 years or $4128 in whole sale electricity. The current wholesale rate they pay back for over supply of electricity to the grid, should that ever occur is $0.05 that figure comes to the sum of $3600. Meaning the minimum they would pay a coal fired plant for 72,000 kwh of energy today is $3600. They in turn would not own any portion of that plant or have any rights to proceeds from that plant based on future earnings. It seems the $4000 rebate they would owe is quite a bargain, considering local utilities are asking the state to increase the cost of electricity by 30% over the next three years, and would guess that will happen many times over the next 20.
That rebate program hardly sounds criminal, it sounds like a bargain. There are no environmental issues with solar, there are no political issues with solar (the not in my back yard mentality, in fact people are begging for solar to be in their back yard, they are even willing to pay for it).
Take into consideration that utilities are highly subsidized from transportation of their raw materials, down to the taxes they pay ect. Power companies would have to pay a lot more for energy if there where no subsidies for the carbon based fuel.

Solar should only be a part of the total energy future of america. In this country we have many natural renewable resources. Some areas have crazy amounts of solar, some crazy wind, some enormous amounts of water or tidal energy, some geothermal, some may even be exceptionally well suited for nuclear (and that is renewable because if they could ever figure out how to use the spent rods safely they have only used 20% of its energy, yucca mtn is full of energy). Using safely and efficiently all of our countries recurring natural resources and working with the environment not against it would make this country the most energy independent country in the world. And no the cost isnt free to tax payers, customers, or providers, but it is lower if we start now when we don't have to, then it will be when it is too late.

I don't want solar in my back yard because it is the cheapest, coolest, or a luxury. I want it because it may be the only thing available, and if not it is a responsible way to contribute to the answer not the problem. I started by building a very efficient home probably to the cost of many thousand dollars over a similar size home. I have 17 inch thick walls of brick foam and concrete. I have 3 foot over hangs, every opening in my home is sealed and flashed to keep the inside in and the out side out. I have over 1300 feet of duct work to efficiently remove and restore air everywhere in the home to keep the air circulating and not overworking the system trying to keep the whole house frigid to get one distant room livable Every appliance except the fridge is energy star (wifey had to have the sub zero, maybe it is ES, but I did not use that as a qualifier to buy it so I can be sure). None of this was subsidized but its the right thing to do.

[solar_dave]

Arizona Public Service correct? The $3 per watt they pay you is not their funds, it is your neighbors money. APS collects it from rate payers, puts it into a interest bearing account for which they receive and keep dividends, then payout as claims are made against the fund.

Yes but they could just as well add a fee for new coal fired generation as well. You can't get something for nothing, everything APS does is paid for by its customers under the "watchful" eye of the utilities commission, or just raise the rates, it is all the same, APS dollars are customer dollars.

I hope your not proposing we let the government run the utilites!!!!

@trbizwiz:
Bravo!

[Sunking]

Yes but they could just as well add a fee for new coal fired generation as well. You can't get something for nothing, everything APS does is paid for by its customers under the "watchful" eye of the utilities commission, or just raise the rates, it is all the same, APS dollars are customer dollars.

OK dave,but I think you are missing my point. APS does not subsidize $2 per watt because they want to, they are forced too by Arizona law. That is an artificial inflation forced upon them that affects every rate payer with higher rates.

I hope your not proposing we let the government run the utilites!!!!

Oh heck NO, I am a Libertarian. I am one of those Nut Jobs CNBC, CNN, and Air America put down because I stand in favor for things like the Free Market, the Constitution, getting rid of most of the Federal government bureaucracies (like the IRS, USDA, NEA) lower taxes, and returning the rule back to the people.

[russ]

Quote - Ok you here is the meat. Solar can only shave peak demand. It does absolutely nothing for the base load, (the other 18 hours in a day the sun does not shine,), or when the clouds roll in.

Sunking is correct - until some method of storage is available, for every mW of wind or solar power put on line a mW of power from nuclear, gas or coal must be added for the system to be functional.

Today's RE power is eye candy. Hope that in years to come the story will be different.

[trbizwiz]

Quote - Ok you here is the meat. Solar can only shave peak demand. It does absolutely nothing for the base load, (the other 18 hours in a day the sun does not shine,), or when the clouds roll in.

Sunking is correct - until some method of storage is available, for every mW of wind or solar power put on line a mW of power from nuclear, gas or coal must be added for the system to be functional.

Today's RE power is eye candy. Hope that in years to come the story will be different.

If lots of people don't buy the eye candy, no one will take the time or resources to improve it beyond that. Any responsible means of promoting solar will go a LNG way to promoting our truly sustainable future.
I believe technology advancement in hybrid autos and eventually plugin hybridsis a direct parallel to renewable home energy.
Imagine two cars parked in the garage with the capability of traveling 500 miles on a charge. There would be enough energy there to run your home for a few days.
Now just store your excess solar and wind energy as potential mechanical energy and charge your batteries when it's convenient. The possibilities are endless technology just has to get there. Out side the box thinking will be required.

[russ]

@ trbizwiz - You have posted the standard green line of stuff!

1) A car that can travel 500 miles on a charge would have how much power available for your house? You would be time shifting power only.

2) Quote Now just store your excess solar and wind energy as potential mechanical energy and charge your batteries when it's convenient. The possibilities are endless technology just has to get there. Out side the box thinking will be required.

I gave seen this statement many times on various sites - it means that the person is parroting someones comment without having understood what is being talked about.

Out side the box simply means loony as the phrase is used today. Outside the box must still meet engineering and physics requirements, restrictions etc. If you believe otherwise then I recommend you buy one of the Magniwork thingies or maybe a Bloombox - they fit the standard green requirement. At least the Bloombox does something though not efficiently.

[trbizwiz]

Yes I guess advancements in technology are pretty far fetched. Hopefully in the next hundred years we will be able to fly in some sort of contraptions just like birds. Maybe a few hundred years we will be able to put the first man on the moon. I suppose it is possible that in a thousand years or so we could harness the power of the atom. Then turn that into an energy source. Then build great big boats that can travel under water for months at a time and they only need to be refueled every 20 years or so. Maybe over the course of 1000 years or so we could advance to that point. Or maybe over the course of 50 years we did that last century.
Thankfully those guys did not listen to all the brilliant engineers of their time who said it was impossible because of present physics principles.
Maybe I am overly optimistic. But it's seems that your alternative of sticking your head in the sand won't achieve much.
I joined this board to learn about solar installation. To learn the basics of planning a system and get hints and ideas from those who did it them selves. I guess I should have left the agenda posts alone. Everyone takes it so personal. Then it becomes impossible to get help with the things I came here for in the first place.
I am sorry if my comments offend you or anyone. I am an eternal optimist. I like being such. It frees me to take chances and think outside the box. Call me a greenie or what ever name you like. The ideas I express are my own. I don't get tidbits from anyone and delist here. I suppose I should take as a compliment the fact you think they are. As most of what I typed was conceived while typing on my smart phone and watching ironman with my son for the 100 th time.
Oh and energy movement or what ever you called it is exactly what a solar powered home needs. Take extra energy from the day and move it to the night. Solar will have to either become more effecient or much cheaper to be widely adopted. But in time who knows.

[trbizwiz]

I forgot to mention

Out side the box = loony. Interesting. In my line of work i use out of the box thinking every day to serve my customers. It's not always the cheapest solution, but it always provides a solution to solve their problem. I never tell a customer no, I give them options and let them chose what best suits there needs. Many in my field just look at option A and if that doesn't work they say sorry I can't help. Guess that's why I am 2 times more successful than my average peers in my field.
If that's loony, I'll take it. I should have gone to engineering school and applied that same thinking maybe I could be a part of the solution. As it is I didn't. I ended up in sales it serves my family fine. But I'll work and study in my free time and provide the best solutions to provide for my families energy needs.

[russ]

Quote - Yes I guess advancements in technology are pretty far fetched. Hopefully in the next hundred years we will be able to fly in some sort of contraptions just like birds.

I read that often on green sites - used to explain or defend the magic people want to have happen. I am not talking about solar PV being impossible - obviously it is not. I am talking about the fact that today it (and wind) is of no great use on the grid as it is not reliable. Storage is required and many are working on a solution. It will come but it will not be in the next five years - we are not yet that close to a solution, let alone making such a thing commercial.

I remember well sitting in meetings where someone would make the comment, 'I wish' - my old boss would advise them to crap in one hand - wish in the other and see which filled up first.

Many of the ideas/solutions you espouse are common on green sites - guess they are just in the air floating around and people 'run' into them.

The entire idea is to take solar from the day and shift it to night - the 'little' problem is to do efficiently and economically. No one disagrees with the idea at all and people have worked at it for very many years. The workable solution is not yet in hand.

'Thinking outside the box' would probably be useful to a salesman - as long as you don't have to guarantee what you provide. If you do have to provide a guarantee it would be better not to get too far outside the box. The term has come to mean someone like a bean counter (accountant or marketing) can provide input to an engineering discussion. Normally useless but they can always claim they are just 'thinking outside the box'. Simply presenting different solutions to a problem in order to make a sale is not 'thinking outside the box' - it is just using the tools at your disposal.

Thinking outside the box might be used to describe the idea of putting wind turbines inside high voltage power line towers. For various reasons it is technically totally unworkable and would be counterproductive plus great expense for little power but recently it was the rage and the people that came up with the idea even won an award in France.

Another clown wanted to put wind turbines on cars - don't know where he thought the wind comes from.

Another wants to generate power from cars going over the roads - great expense for small power generated. Better to make the vehicle more efficient to begin with as that would have the same effect.

An engineer should always be exploring the boundaries of the box to see where it can be reshaped, stretched or otherwise changed. That is one of the descriptions of engineering but Ohm's Law is Ohm's law and hasn't been modified recently. Betzs Law tells how much power there is available in the wind and again it hasn't been changed in a long time - nearly 100 years. Now people try to sell residential wind turbines that supposedly violate it all the time - and fools buy them!

You must be a super salesman! What field?