Might have found a way to make it worth it in TX

[Photonfanatic]

Well damn they're freaking picky about that crap aren't they? Like its some kind of big deal if someone puts power on the grid. Probably just laws to help them keep their monopoly on power generation.

[Ian S]

that wall street article is over a year old. How close were their estimates to reality?

They were talking long term although some effects could show up in 2014. It's claimed that to keep up with demand, Texas will need additional generating capacity of 20,000 MW over the next decade. They have 1,500 MW planned so far. Who is going to build all that generating capacity and sell the electricity to Texas for a retail 7 cents/kWh when they can sell it to Cali at 25-30 cents/kWh?

[Sunking]

So what keeps people from creating a separate..."network" and putting their panels straight on the grid? Not using any of the power their panels are generating, just sending it straight off to be sold?

No it has nothing to do with the power companies, it is state and federal regulations. That is why electricity is so expensive and in so sort supply in many states like California. Regulations are so strict in California no investor owned utility will build a power plant there. California ai snot alone in that regard.

Other states like TX are not that strict with sate regulations but NoBama is trying to interfer using hte Employment Prevention Agency, but so far TX has told NoBama and EPA to go pound ricks. Keep your eyes and ears open now NoBama is trying to keep his promise to punish Americans with much higher electric bills. He could not get it done before when he had the democrat controlled congress and Senate, they shot his Cap and Trade bill to pieces and buried it. Now he will try through XO and the EPA to really put the hurt on Americans with extremely high electric rates.

OK you want to build a Solar plant. You can do that. Assuming you have all the permits, engineering, and construction in order you are ready to go on line. You electronically put out an offer to the State Controller office you have X amount of Mwh for sale at X amount of money per Mwh. Electricity is a commodity sold on the free market. YOu may have a taker you may not. If the Natural Gas Co-Gen in the next county beats you roffer, they get a bid and you get to set there and try again until you ccan offer the right amount of power, at the right time, for the right price. Problem is you only have a very limited window of a few hours per day, and cannot afford to under bid your competitor who can guarantee output capacity. You as a solar provider cannot compete nor guarantee output from one second to the next. So you go bankrupt because no one will buy your product. Here in TX wholesale market peak power sells for about $40 Mwh or 4 cents per Kwh. Off peak around $30 to $35 Mwh

[SunEagle]

They were talking long term although some effects could show up in 2014. It's claimed that to keep up with demand, Texas will need additional generating capacity of 20,000 MW over the next decade. They have 1,500 MW planned so far. Who is going to build all that generating capacity and sell the electricity to Texas for a retail 7 cents/kWh when they can sell it to Cali at 25-30 cents/kWh?

well they may decide to go with that big wind field that the big oil guy was going to build.

I also saw an article about using shale oil but I don't know if they were going to use it in existing generating stations or build new ones to use that type of fuel.

Right now I would agree that electricity will be costing most people in the US more based on the latest action by our prez which will cause coal plants to close or very expensive cleaning equipment installed to meet the new emission limits. Either way I now believe our electric rates will go up. Maybe time to dust off the plans to build us some nuclear generating facilities.

[Sunking]

Texans may be in for a rude awakening.

Nah two year olde story that never happened. Just a trick to send stock prices up so th ebig boys could unload some utility stock. Since 2007 electric rates have dropped every year in TX and all other states that export power to import states. Electric rates are expected to keep goin glower over th enext 5 years as natural gas supplies are off the charts. There is not enough NG storage capacity to hold what is waiting in the ground to come out. Same for oil in the USA, however Nobama will not allow it to come up on fed lands. We got more stinking energy than we know what to do with.

When that runs out we have 200 years of coal and about 10 million years of nuke fuel to burn through.

[SunEagle]

Well damn they're freaking picky about that crap aren't they? Like its some kind of big deal if someone puts power on the grid. Probably just laws to help them keep their monopoly on power generation.

Well besides that fact that a small co-gen system will take some of the market the Utilities are usually ok with it because it helps build the base generating capabilities and allows the big guys to take down units for maintenance.

The big issues is safety. Would you care if your neighbor hooked up a 10k watt system to the local power lines and then you found out he was not producing the proper voltage or was sending damaging harmonics down the line into your house.

Co-generators have to know what they are doing and need to be safe my meeting regulations. That is done by filing the proper paperwork and having your generating system inspected and approved before connection. The Utilities do this for your safety as much as theirs.

[inetdog]

When that runs out we have 200 years of coal and about 10 million years of nuke fuel to burn through.

At which point our descendants may be royally pissed at us for using up all of the lovely organic feedstock materials for plastics, etc., but having unlimited power will make up for that in part, and that is a whole different question anyway.

[Sunking]

They were talking long term although some effects could show up in 2014. It's claimed that to keep up with demand, Texas will need additional generating capacity of 20,000 MW over the next decade. They have 1,500 MW planned so far.

No problem if NoBama keeps out of it. TX has no problem building power plants. It is only Federal that is trying to stop it. Do your homework and you would know that.

Who is going to build all that generating capacity and sell the electricity to Texas for a retail 7 cents/kWh when they can sell it to Cali at 25-30 cents/kWh?

Again you have no clue what your are talking about. The USA is divided up into 10 grids regionally:

WSCC
MAPP
SPP
ERCOT (Texas)
MAIN
SERC
FRCC
ECAR
MACC
NPCC

California is part of WSCC and no power from Texas (ERCOT) is sold to WSCC. Very little powe ris exchanged between operating divisions. The interconnects have very limited capacity. Besides you cannot transport power more than a few hundred miles. California can only get power from neighboring states. Secondly California is getting very close to being cut off by neighboring states like AZ. Neighboring states are running out of capacity and cannot continue to keep up with their home state demands and California. Unfortunately for California in the very near future no price will be high enough to bring power in. They will have to have rolling blackouts. They will get what they asked for with people like you running the government. Sooner the better.

[Photonfanatic]

Well besides that fact that a small co-gen system will take some of the market the Utilities are usually ok with it because it helps build the base generating capabilities and allows the big guys to take down units for maintenance.

The big issues is safety. Would you care if your neighbor hooked up a 10k watt system to the local power lines and then you found out he was not producing the proper voltage or was sending damaging harmonics down the line into your house.

Co-generators have to know what they are doing and need to be safe my meeting regulations. That is done by filing the proper paperwork and having your generating system inspected and approved before connection. The Utilities do this for your safety as much as theirs.

That's all fine and well. Until they decide that they need to get $5000 from you, for permits or licensing. I bet its just like with garage sales. Guy wants to have a garage sale, has to pay $150 for a "permit". Now granted, I know we need permits for garage sales. Otherwise the town would look quite trashy, at all times. But that's why you keep all the same regulations on the permit, and charge 7 cents for it, or whatever the piece of paper costs. And still enforce all the regs that the permit entails. But no, the city needs more money! And we gotta get that money! I got a feeling its the same way with the power generation thing.

[russ]

That's all fine and well. Until they decide that they need to get $5000 from you, for permits or licensing. I bet its just like with garage sales. Guy wants to have a garage sale, has to pay $150 for a "permit". Now granted, I know we need permits for garage sales. Otherwise the town would look quite trashy, at all times. But that's why you keep all the same regulations on the permit, and charge 7 cents for it, or whatever the piece of paper costs. And still enforce all the regs that the permit entails. But no, the city needs more money! And we gotta get that money! I got a feeling its the same way with the power generation thing.

A standard whining point among some groups but it has nothing to do with reality.

[Photonfanatic]

So you're saying they don't charge for all that? Its all just free? As far as the state and any permits or licensing is concerned.

[Ian S]

California is part of WSCC and no power from Texas (ERCOT) is sold to WSCC. Very little powe ris exchanged between operating divisions. The interconnects have very limited capacity. Besides you cannot transport power more than a few hundred miles.

Well you cowboys are even worse off then since you'll have to build your own generating capacity and so far
you're not doing it:

The state will need to add about 20,000 megawatts of power- plant capacity, the equivalent of 10 major coal or nuclear stations, to keep up with demand over the next decade, Samuel Brothwell, an analyst for Bloomberg Industries, said in an April 27 report. Texas only has one major power project under construction, a 1,000-megawatt coal plant, he said. Calpine is planning to add 520 megawatts of gas-fired capacity by 2014.

[SunEagle]

So you're saying they don't charge for all that? Its all just free? As far as the state and any permits or licensing is concerned.

Well you have to get over the fact that rules and regulations cost you weather you like it or not. Some states it costs more others less. But like taxes you gotta pay.

On the flip side anarchy will end up costing you more because no one has a plan and it becomes complete chaos which if bad for all.

[Photonfanatic]

Well, I've learned a lot from this thread. Mainly, that electricity is subject to such corruption, and good ol boy politics that it really doesn't matter what you do. If you live in a state with good net metering laws, its likely that state is in such dire straits when it comes to power that in the long run it may not matter anyway. If you live in a state with bad net metering laws, you're much better off just trying to conserve and buying it from the man. Guess I won't be going solar, and have no reason to return to this forum. Consider this my last post. See ya!

[russ]

Mainly, that electricity is subject to such corruption, and good ol boy politics that it really doesn't matter what you do.

Spoken in the best OWS fleabagger style! Unless you care to define the corruption you are talking about.