Might have found a way to make it worth it in TX

[Photonfanatic]

I have contacted Green Mountain Energy via email about their voluntary net metering in TX. It seems that their policy is, that they will pay up to 500 kwh per month, the same rate that they're currently charging. So if they're charging 11.6 cents, that's what they'll pay you, up to 500 kwh. But my question is of course, "is that enough?". Could a standard sized house operate on that much electricity in the demanding summer months of TX? We often see 106F days. I'm new to dealing with electric companies and their rates and measurements, so please forgive my newb ignorance. I take it that 1 Kwh is enough to run say... a 1 kw dishwasher for 1 hour?


Here is the actual email reply that I got:


Green Mountain is offering its customers credit for any excess energy that their qualifying distributed renewable generation facility exports to the electricity grid. For the first 500 kWh per month, the credit will be the same per kWh rate that Green Mountain charges for the Renewable Rewards product. For any excess energy beyond 500 kWh per month, the buy-back credit rate will be reduced by 50%. The credit is exclusive of any monthly service charge, TDSP advanced meter surcharge, applicable taxes and fees or other charges. Only customers who meet all of the criteria and are enrolled on the Renewable Rewards product can be eligible for this reimbursement.

To directly answer your question, for the first 500 kwh you generate during any given month, yes, GMEC credits the exact amount you are charged. If you go beyond the 500 kwh benchmark, we credit half of the rate for the renewable rewards product is charging at the time.

Green Mountain Energy Company is committed to excellent customer service. If we can be of further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact us toll free at 1-866-785-4668.

[KRenn]

I have contacted Green Mountain Energy via email about their voluntary net metering in TX. It seems that their policy is, that they will pay up to 500 kwh per month, the same rate that they're currently charging. So if they're charging 11.6 cents, that's what they'll pay you, up to 500 kwh. But my question is of course, "is that enough?". Could a standard sized house operate on that much electricity in the demanding summer months of TX? We often see 106F days. I'm new to dealing with electric companies and their rates and measurements, so please forgive my newb ignorance. I take it that 1 Kwh is enough to run say... a 1 kw dishwasher for 1 hour?


Here is the actual email reply that I got:


Green Mountain is offering its customers credit for any excess energy that their qualifying distributed renewable generation facility exports to the electricity grid. For the first 500 kWh per month, the credit will be the same per kWh rate that Green Mountain charges for the Renewable Rewards product. For any excess energy beyond 500 kWh per month, the buy-back credit rate will be reduced by 50%. The credit is exclusive of any monthly service charge, TDSP advanced meter surcharge, applicable taxes and fees or other charges. Only customers who meet all of the criteria and are enrolled on the Renewable Rewards product can be eligible for this reimbursement.

To directly answer your question, for the first 500 kwh you generate during any given month, yes, GMEC credits the exact amount you are charged. If you go beyond the 500 kwh benchmark, we credit half of the rate for the renewable rewards product is charging at the time.

Green Mountain Energy Company is committed to excellent customer service. If we can be of further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact us toll free at 1-866-785-4668.

If it's a really really small house maybe. :P 6000 kilowatt hours isn't a lot at all. If you run the A/C regularly you could consume all of that in one summer.

[Sunking]

500 Kwh/month is nothing in TX. Average consumer home uses 2500/month. TX is the US largest consumers of electricity. The other thing to point out is TX is deregulated, and I am familiar with Green Mountain. Like any reseller they are Middle Man. They buy at wholesale from TXU, and resale to the Residential customer. They just shuffle paperwork and collect a check.

Now this is where it gets interesting. Where I live I can go to a website to shop for the lowest electric rate. Green Mountain is one of the hits. Yes they will offer you up to 500 Kwh/month at 11.6 cents per Kwh. After 500 Kwh they only credit 5.6 cents right? Well most of their competitors do not offer any grid tied options but you can get a 3-year locked rate right now today @ 7.9 cents per Kwh. Only thing added on top is a $5/month service charge. No taxes, fuel surcharges, distribution nothing.

How does it all work. Well here in NTX the retailers buy wholesale from TXU and is distributed by ONCORE electric owned by TXU. They buy at 6-cents per Kwh, and sell it for 8 to 12 cents. TXU/Oncore does the meter reading and forwards the bill to the retailer. The retailer pays TXU, and sends the customer a bill with a tidy little profit margin of 25 to 46%.

As for Green Mountain sure they offer you GTI and net Meter for up to 500 Kwh/month. But they charge you outrageous 11.6 cents to do so. They are making a killing off you. Think about it. If you went with Champion Energy like I do and pay 7.9 cents per Kwh and use 2500 Kwh/month I pay $0.079 x 2500 = $197.50 + $5 service charge = $202.50.

On Green Mountain plan you use the same 2500 Kwh and what happens? First thing is we deduct 500 Kwh at NET 0 and that leaves us with 2000 Kwh. Of that 2000 Kwh you sold them roughly 75% or 1500 Kwh to bank on and use during the rest of the day. So you sell them 1500 x $0.056 = $84 worth. You now buy it back for 11.6 cents or 1500 Kwh x $0.116 = $174 which means you get a bill for $174 - $84 = $90 + any and all surcharges which I do not know what they are. Sure you saved a little money each month. Lets call it $90/month savings. So you invested $15k or more. What is the 0% ROI time to break even? it is around $15,000 / $90-month = 166 months or 13.8 years.

Now ask yourself this. Invest that same $15K for 14 years and how much do you cash out? Well if you settle for small 7% annual return which is horrible you cash out $40K

[Ian S]

I have contacted Green Mountain Energy via email about their voluntary net metering in TX. It seems that their policy is, that they will pay up to 500 kwh per month, the same rate that they're currently charging. So if they're charging 11.6 cents, that's what they'll pay you, up to 500 kwh. But my question is of course, "is that enough?". Could a standard sized house operate on that much electricity in the demanding summer months of TX? We often see 106F days. I'm new to dealing with electric companies and their rates and measurements, so please forgive my newb ignorance. I take it that 1 Kwh is enough to run say... a 1 kw dishwasher for 1 hour?


Here is the actual email reply that I got:


Green Mountain is offering its customers credit for any excess energy that their qualifying distributed renewable generation facility exports to the electricity grid. For the first 500 kWh per month, the credit will be the same per kWh rate that Green Mountain charges for the Renewable Rewards product. For any excess energy beyond 500 kWh per month, the buy-back credit rate will be reduced by 50%. The credit is exclusive of any monthly service charge, TDSP advanced meter surcharge, applicable taxes and fees or other charges. Only customers who meet all of the criteria and are enrolled on the Renewable Rewards product can be eligible for this reimbursement.

To directly answer your question, for the first 500 kwh you generate during any given month, yes, GMEC credits the exact amount you are charged. If you go beyond the 500 kwh benchmark, we credit half of the rate for the renewable rewards product is charging at the time.

Green Mountain Energy Company is committed to excellent customer service. If we can be of further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact us toll free at 1-866-785-4668.

What you need to realize is that the 500 kWh limitation refers to the excess of your production over what you yourself use. In most if not all grid tied systems, the solar energy you produce goes to satisfying your own energy needs at that instant of time first then any excess is sent to the grid. Whether this could work would depend on what fraction of your production you actually use yourself. And that depends on your individual pattern of electrical consumption. The more you personally use during the actual time you're producing, the better the numbers would work. If you use little during that production time, then that would be a disadvantage. In a Texas summer, if you're home during the day with AC on, then that would be to your advantage. Because the 500 kWh is fixed, there is probably an optimum size of solar system but again it will depend on your own individual situation and usage patterns. You'd probably be looking at a system that annually would produce maybe 7000 to 9000 kWh so as not to go past the 500 kWh excess limit very often. I would ask if you don't export the full 500 kWh in a given month does the part you didn't use roll over to the next? I doubt it but you never know.

IMHO, a more fundamental issue is that AFAIK, your only incentive is the federal tax credit. That may make the financial benefit of solar close to nil or worse regardless of the net metering plan. Also, your rates are fairly low at least for now although who can say what the case will be in 20 years.

[inetdog]

You'd probably be looking at a system that annually would produce maybe 7000 to 9000 kWh so as not to go past the 500 kWh excess limit very often. I would ask if you don't export the full 500 kWh in a given month does the part you didn't use roll over to the next? I doubt it but you never know.

For folks with seasonal rates or a high winter power load too, saving up net metering credits acquired during the summer to make up for low winter production is a way of life. But possibly 500kWh per month actually paid out rather than just credited would work just as well. YMMDefinitelyV.

[Photonfanatic]

Sigh. Well this makes me wonder if its even worth going solar in TX at all. Its also got me thinking about going off grid. Or, perhaps only partially on-grid. I have heard of people making car battery systems. Mainly on that TV show, Doomsday Preppers. There have been a few people on that show that set up a solar system, where the PV panels fed something like 24 or 48 car batteries. Then they'd just use what they needed, and sell the rest to the power company. Or if they went over what they had stored up, then they could throw a switch and be on-grid. I know this may be another one of my wacky ideas, but there is an auto salvage yard near me that sells used, working car batteries for $35 each. Perhaps there is some way that I could create a solar system this way? That would work to my advantage.

You can get 100 watt, Wsolar brand PV panels on ebay for $130. I could afford 10 of those no problem.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WSolar-100-Watt-Solar-Panel-12V/130909493278?_trksid=p2045573.m2102&_trkparms=aid%3D555003%26algo%3DPW.CAT%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D277%26meid%3D8512513983441962631%26pid%3D100034%26prg%3D1079%26rk%3D3%26sd%3D261233199089%26

[russ]

Comments in bold in the text

I have heard of people making car battery systems. Mainly on that TV show, Doomsday Preppers. There have been a few people on that show that set up a solar system, where the PV panels fed something like 24 or 48 car batteries. Loony land - it doesn't work that way - what you are talking about is the same as much of youtube - just someone chattering to make themselves feel important.


Then they'd just use what they needed, and sell the rest to the power company. Or if they went over what they had stored up, then they could throw a switch and be on-grid. I know this may be another one of my wacky ideas, but there is an auto salvage yard near me that sells used, working car batteries for $35 each. Perhaps there is some way that I could create a solar system this way? That would work to my advantage. Very expensive for something of no use to you.

You can get 100 watt, Wsolar brand PV panels on ebay for $130. I could afford 10 of those no problem. Very high price for no name panel!


http://www.ebay.com/itm/WSolar-100-W...61233199089%26

[Sunking]

Then they'd just use what they needed, and sell the rest to the power company.

That would be very foolish. Here is why. Let's assume you could utilize every little watt hour a battery system is capable of producing, which by the way is impossible but I am sugar coating it to make it sound better than it really is. When you factor in battery replacement cost over the life of the system you end up paying abound $1.50/Kwh with a battery system.

Now stop and think about that. It cost you a $1.50 to generate 1 Kwh and sell to the POCO for 10 cents. Is that a wise investment or business model?

[inetdog]

Now stop and think about that. It cost you a $1.50 to generate 1 Kwh and sell to the POCO for 10 cents. Is that a wise investment or business model?

But I would make up for it in volume....

[Photonfanatic]

Well guys, I hate to say it but, you've pretty much destroyed my faith in solar. At this point, it looks as if I should quit the forum altogether. All my threads have had nothing but disheartening news. Can't sell it to the power company, can't make it and keep it for myself. Guess I really am just at the mercy of the utility companies.

[SunEagle]

Well guys, I hate to say it but, you've pretty much destroyed my faith in solar. At this point, it looks as if I should quit the forum altogether. All my threads have had nothing but disheartening news. Can't sell it to the power company, can't make it and keep it for myself. Guess I really am just at the mercy of the utility companies.

You can move to California where solar pays for itself in less than 6 years.

Wait. Don't do that because everything else is over priced and you'll be broke before the solar pays for itself.

[Sunking]

Well guys, I hate to say it but, you've pretty much destroyed my faith in solar. At this point, it looks as if I should quit the forum altogether. All my threads have had nothing but disheartening news. Can't sell it to the power company, can't make it and keep it for myself. Guess I really am just at the mercy of the utility companies.

Do you live in TX?

What are you disheartened with? You live iin a state that pays high wages, low unemployment, no income tax, low cost of living, affordable housing, dirt cheap energy prices, any climate you want, modern, decent schools, great infrastructure, and opportunity out the yeng yang.

If you are looking for handouts, nanny to take care of you, over priced everything, high taxes, poor schools, over crowded, high unemployment rate, collapsing economy, go to California. Misery loves company out there.

[Photonfanatic]

No, its pretty safe to say that all I'm looking for is a very cheap electric bill. As a libertarian, I'm not one for the nanny state and theft through taxation. Right now my bill ranges from $150-$250 per month, depending on the time of year. I'd like to get that down to around... well $0. Zero dollars. But I could settle for say $50 per month.

[SunEagle]

No, its pretty safe to say that all I'm looking for is a very cheap electric bill. As a libertarian, I'm not one for the nanny state and theft through taxation. Right now my bill ranges from $150-$250 per month, depending on the time of year. I'd like to get that down to around... well $0. Zero dollars. But I could settle for say $50 per month.

Without being rude the best way to save money concerning your electric bill is to reduce your electric foot print.

That means turning off things when they are not needed. Adjusting your thermostat so your air conditioner or heater doesn't work as much. Adding insulation or eliminating air flow cracks in the walls and windows. Keeps the heat out in the summer and cold out in the winter.

Change out your lighting fixture to LED or compact fluorescent. A solar water heater will pay for itself faster then solar pv panels.

Just plain conservation will pay for itself quickly but you have to change your habits and be consistent.

[Photonfanatic]

Without being rude the best way to save money concerning your electric bill is to reduce your electric foot print.

That means turning off things when they are not needed. Adjusting your thermostat so your air conditioner or heater doesn't work as much. Adding insulation or eliminating air flow cracks in the walls and windows. Keeps the heat out in the summer and cold out in the winter.

Change out your lighting fixture to LED or compact fluorescent. A solar water heater will pay for itself faster then solar pv panels.

Just plain conservation will pay for itself quickly but you have to change your habits and be consistent.

Well without being rude, I had already planned on doing all of that. Thus far I have sealed all the cracks and found all the air leakages in the house that I can, via IR temperature sensor. I have also switched every bulb in the house to compact fluorescent. (woulda gone LED but they're much more expensive) When my water heater dies, and it will, I'll be going with a hybrid water heater which uses half the power of the same sized standard water heater. All my appliances are the latest energy star at the time of purchase, and in the fall I'm going to be installing attic foil or radiant barrier or the like. I'm doing everything I can to gut the electric bill, I just wanted that last push to go ahead and push the electricity cost down close to zero.