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Solar water heating and solar PV hybrid?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Sunking View Post
    Paul the issue is negative EROI. It takes more power to run the pump, than the extra power gained by using a pump. Yes you can buy pumps and panels made to do that. But the economics and EROI do not work. Like smoking, makes you feel good, but will kill you sooner than later.
    Eggs-actly just answering a question. I have a lot of useless PV stuff stuck in the peanut butter. Started storing solar crap since 1983 and cant throw anything away I even have literature on whole house AC that runs on Briggs and Straton engine talk about pigeons

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    • #17
      Not this pigeon Sunking! But man they show some beautiful architecture out there in the world (a bit jealous). Paul it sounds like if you need 4 acres you were definitely doing some Global Warming ... now I know who did it . I was trying to put three sets of coils in an area 50'x150' but honesty the roots are going to be a bear plus the blue clay. Looking for a DIY well driller. I do like to know you seem satisfied with the whole install in the end. Thats important but my problem will be the county code guys. I am trying to make my frog over the garage into a future apartment when I am too old to work and need some extra income and not a place to reload bullets and take tasteful nudie photos of women ... lol... well that hasn't happen since the new wife. Ok I don't know how this forum feels about ranting on and on so I am going to shut up. You can find me somewhere else asking noob questions on the forum.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by KenInNC View Post
        Not this pigeon Sunking! But man they show some beautiful architecture out there in the world (a bit jealous). Paul it sounds like if you need 4 acres you were definitely doing some Global Warming ... now I know who did it . I was trying to put three sets of coils in an area 50'x150' but honesty the roots are going to be a bear plus the blue clay. Looking for a DIY well driller. I do like to know you seem satisfied with the whole install in the end. Thats important but my problem will be the county code guys. I am trying to make my frog over the garage into a future apartment when I am too old to work and need some extra income and not a place to reload bullets and take tasteful nudie photos of women ... lol... well that hasn't happen since the new wife. Ok I don't know how this forum feels about ranting on and on so I am going to shut up. You can find me somewhere else asking noob questions on the forum.
        50X150 would keep a 25Gal fish tank comfy

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        • #19
          The only bonus for me is that I have a creek running down the slope my property is on and it just so happens to run the whole length of the yard ... darn neighbors septic ... actually that was the problem but now its like a creek running on blue clay. Wasn't like that 20 years ago. Looks like I am going to be drill'n some deep holes far apart from each other (in that respect our water table starts about 2' down and we have lots of water under there). People around here just pump the well water through their systems and back down but thats hard on the AC units and I don't thing thats fair for the water system either.
          Last edited by KenInNC; 11-19-2018, 10:55 PM. Reason: misspelled word

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          • #20
            Originally posted by KenInNC View Post
            Has anyone come up with an idea or product that might use the heat on the back side of the solar panel to heat sometime of water flowing pipe to help create warm or hot water for a hot water heater? I am not sure if this would be smart or detrimental in the summer to the PV panels electrical output but people talk about cooling the panels and maybe this would do it and yet provide warm to hot water for a home? I am going to put up a south facing PV set of 14 panels at the top of my home which is a bit of square footage in my opinion that could be doing dual purpose. Any thoughts or suggestions? Links? Thank you ... I thought of a copper coil to each panel with some insulation batting and a board behind them but maybe this is too much heat for the PV panels. You could then have connectors between each one to connect them. Just my 2
            Short answer is no practical ways have been proven to be workable, practical and cost effective at this time.

            As Azdave notes, if it were practical with current tech. and cost effective it would have been done by now.

            Sometimes/often some of the big(ger) solar thermal farms have some form(s) of the more common types of heat recovery/economizing systems. That's mostly for two reasons:
            1.) The amount of waste heat involved.
            2.) The higher temps. usually involved.

            If it could be done in a practical and cost effective manner on a residential, I may be in a somewhat unusual position of knowing ways to pull it off. I spent a good part of an engineering career designing boilers and heat transfer equipment some of which is of the type that is commonly used in heat recovery schemes, including cost analyses. I also know a bit about PV design. In my professional engineering opinion, and also as SK notes, you will not find a way to make a practical, serviceable and cost effective energy scavenging method as an adjunct for residential PV at this time. Possible, yes. Practical given the engineering and design complications, not anytime soon. Economically, a long way off.

            As for finding folks who know heat transfer/thermal and pressure vessel design and PV design requirements in one place, I know of one. Me. There may be others.

            As for residential size systems marketed today, they come/go with abrupt regularity, usually by outfits/individuals/crackpots who know little of either heat exchanger design, or PV, or both. The systems I've seen, usually one off or non existent except on paper are, in my opinion as a retired P.E., and in the field where I claimed professional competence, simply a joke. Easy and tempting idea to think of. The devil is in the details.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by KenInNC View Post
              Paul thanks for that pump info ... I am looking to install some pulled Geo Thermal heat pumps in a garage and I may do a 6' under ground closed coiled loop setup if I have enough yard to make three sets of them. Sure beats paying for three 250' wells at $1,400.00 each.
              Take a look at Mitsubishi Hyperheat heat pumps, in my opinion a much better option than GEO thermal. Geo thermal is not as great as it it made out to be. Lots of issues with wells, ground loops etc, no one ever mentions the power consumption of the circulating pumps or the lowering of COP as the ground loop temperature decreases with continued operation over the heating season.
              Last edited by LucMan; 11-20-2018, 08:58 PM.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by KenInNC View Post
                The only bonus for me is that I have a creek running down the slope my property is on and it just so happens to run the whole length of the yard ... darn neighbors septic ... actually that was the problem but now its like a creek running on blue clay. Wasn't like that 20 years ago. Looks like I am going to be drill'n some deep holes far apart from each other (in that respect our water table starts about 2' down and we have lots of water under there). People around here just pump the well water through their systems and back down but thats hard on the AC units and I don't thing thats fair for the water system either.
                Watch out EPA very tough on waste discharge, Yes pump out pump back in is considered waste, better to discharge into drainage ditch or sewer

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                • #23
                  Even though I am not pursuing this concept anymore ... I want to thank you for all of the advice. Paul, I would never use any discharge systems. I would use closed loop setups. As much as I want to hook up my R22 Geothermal heat pumps the county inspector will not allow that which is sad. Its a small closed loop refrigerant system all self-contained in a 30"x30"x48" (thereabouts) compressor and circulation fan. The bonus is that it has a hotwater circulation pump to run the hot liquid to a special hot water heater (enclosed loop for heating water plus the electric element). It would be interesting to see a complete setup with a automated thermal controlled valve or circuit that knows when to take the heat off of the solar panels and use it to to to the hot water heater and then the heat pump and then to the ground for more thermal heating in the winter. Oh well. I have a bigger issue currently as the county engineering department is making my life difficult asking for difficult documents to provide. Merry Christmas to everyone or happy what ever you celebrate in this upcoming end of the year!

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by KenInNC View Post
                    Even though I am not pursuing this concept anymore ... I want to thank you for all of the advice. Paul, I would never use any discharge systems. I would use closed loop setups. As much as I want to hook up my R22 Geothermal heat pumps the county inspector will not allow that which is sad. Its a small closed loop refrigerant system all self-contained in a 30"x30"x48" (thereabouts) compressor and circulation fan. The bonus is that it has a hotwater circulation pump to run the hot liquid to a special hot water heater (enclosed loop for heating water plus the electric element). It would be interesting to see a complete setup with a automated thermal controlled valve or circuit that knows when to take the heat off of the solar panels and use it to to to the hot water heater and then the heat pump and then to the ground for more thermal heating in the winter. Oh well. I have a bigger issue currently as the county engineering department is making my life difficult asking for difficult documents to provide. Merry Christmas to everyone or happy what ever you celebrate in this upcoming end of the year!
                    Read my Town Electric Nazis post, States and Cities are mandated to reduce Carbon Foot Print, But they HATE IT. That's why they want to hit us with Mileage Tax in place of Gas Tax on our auto.
                    Last edited by Paul Land; 12-14-2018, 03:27 PM.

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                    • #25
                      Looking forward to that! I need a good rant

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                      • #26
                        Paul you have got to be kidding me ... $23.00 house meter, plus $25.00 for net meter, plus $25.00 fee Total $73.00 per Month? They charge for a NET METER? I have to ask my local guy. Starting to really not like the system. Hard to live self sufficient and you never own anything

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by KenInNC View Post
                          Paul you have got to be kidding me ... $23.00 house meter, plus $25.00 for net meter, plus $25.00 fee Total $73.00 per Month? They charge for a NET METER? I have to ask my local guy. Starting to really not like the system. Hard to live self sufficient and you never own anything
                          "OOPS" I forgot you get 0.04 cents Kw for your juice

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                          • #28
                            We get nothing here ... only 1:1 exchange and after the next 30 days it goes away. Kind of sucks they don't actually bank it. More for them to profit from and harder for me to get approved to even have

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by KenInNC View Post
                              We get nothing here ... only 1:1 exchange and after the next 30 days it goes away. Kind of sucks they don't actually bank it. More for them to profit from and harder for me to get approved to even have
                              Some states have high RECS like N.J. has $256.00 Per Mw, Ohio has $6.00 per, thats about 35-40 350w panels to get $6-$256 back. Break even about 30 years. not good!

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by KenInNC View Post
                                We get nothing here ... only 1:1 exchange and after the next 30 days it goes away. Kind of sucks they don't actually bank it. More for them to profit from and harder for me to get approved to even have
                                Ken, just curious who provides your service. Duke? BEMC?

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