HELP - SolarCity vs. SunPower Quotes

[Naptown]

May be you could provide proof that SunPower modules do not have initial degradation?

But sure, you could not back you word, because you either seriously delusional believing in marketing BS, or simply got your agenda.

But here we go: http://www.sunpowercorp.co.uk/commer...ices/warranty/ As I said, QUOTE: SunPower claim initial degradation as high as 5%, and then more or less flat rate after first 5 years.

It is a known fact that boron doped poly cells degrade 3% in the first 30 days.
Mono cells degrade less and SP are doped with phosphorous not boron.





Ohh so posting outright lies here is Ok. Lies like SolarCity is not publicly traded company(they are) or that SunPower is a subsidiary of Total (SP is again public company). When people post outright lies here or trying to spread unsubstituted FUD it is ok...

I don't believe that anyone said that but I did not re read the entire thread.
It was stated that Total owns a controlling interest in SP

But when I come and point out the facts, like real guaranteed SC degradation rates and that Sun Power could not match them... The fact that Sun Power in deep financial trouble and lost 90% of per share value in recent years. The fact that SP is not an installer, but panel producer where competition with Chinese etc.

SC uses panels from a variety of manufacturers (generally the cheapest at the moment as all businesses would do)
Output degredation is a function of cell type, doping,and manufacturing tolerances.

Yeah, the facts they heart you. It is hard for you to tolerate such things.

Try stating some technical facts of your own. The production warranty on a lease is a set so low on all leases no matter who produces it.

All people like you could actually do, is to try to belittle an opponent. With pure personal attack like this, QUOTE:You sound like a very junior employee of the company that just went through a two week induction course - lots of blather and no knowledge.

responses in red

[Tezz]

And your proof for this is what exactly?

May be you could provide proof that SunPower modules do not have initial degradation?

But sure, you could not back you word, because you either seriously delusional believing in marketing BS, or simply got your agenda.

But here we go: http://www.sunpowercorp.co.uk/commer...ices/warranty/ As I said, QUOTE: SunPower claim initial degradation as high as 5%, and then more or less flat rate after first 5 years.

I don't know what your game is that you are in love with Solar City but if you want to back up your wild statements with facts and references OK - otherwise don't post.

You sound like a very junior employee of the company that just went through a two week induction course - lots of blather and no knowledge.

Ohh so posting outright lies here is Ok. Lies like SolarCity is not publicly traded company(they are) or that SunPower is a subsidiary of Total (SP is again public company). When people post outright lies here or trying to spread unsubstituted FUD it is ok...

But when I come and point out the facts, like real guaranteed SC degradation rates and that Sun Power could not match them... The fact that Sun Power in deep financial trouble and lost 90% of per share value in recent years. The fact that SP is not an installer, but panel producer where competition with Chinese etc.

Yeah, the facts they heart you. It is hard for you to tolerate such things.

All people like you could actually do, is to try to belittle an opponent. With pure personal attack like this, QUOTE:You sound like a very junior employee of the company that just went through a two week induction course - lots of blather and no knowledge.

[russ]

KRenn - Excellent!

[SoCalsolar]

I hope Tezz comes back

I hope Tezz comes back this stuff is priceless.

[KRenn]

I don't know what your game is that you are in love with Solar City but if you want to back up your wild statements with facts and references OK - otherwise don't post.

You sound like a very junior employee of the company that just went through a two week induction course - lots of blather and no knowledge.

Pretty much this. I'm out of the solar industry now but was around long enough to tell when someone was regurgitating standard level sales BS talk. Each particular company fills up their salespeople with random gibberish that they repeat ad-nauseum. The solar industry is filled with salespeople who lack general knowledge but get by on bombast and frivolous claims.


Claims I've heard from other companies while in the solar industry:

"Our generic Chinese polycrystalline panels do better in the heat than those mono's you're being offered. Temperature coefficient? Don't worry about that, that only applies in a laboratory setting and not the real world."

"Our panels produce 50% more than that other company, no we can't give you a guarantee but only because varying weather conditions can affect the production, but you'll be blown away by how much they produce."

"Our 4 kilowatt system will outproduce their 8 kilowatt system, easily."

"Is a 6 kilowatt inverter too small for a 10 kilowatt system, no, your system relies on AC power and the AC power of your 10 kilowatt system only requires a 6 kilowatt inverter."

"We don't need to double-flash anything, we'll simply use silicon gel to seal in all those openings on your roof, its got a 100 year warranty."

"There's no difference in panel quality, if there was, they all wouldn't look the same, right?"

"The manufacturer of the equipment doesn't matter, you're only buying the power, so who cares what the equipment is."

"All inverters are the same, you really don't see a difference from one to the other, they all work the same, they're the least important components of the solar system."

"Our panels don't degrade in power, the warranty guarantees them for 25 years."

"We'll offer you a full 25 year warranty on EVERYTHING! How long have we been in business? Roughly about 8 months now but we're going strong!!!!!"

"Power tolerance is meaningless, our panels always match the rated power, they just should that -5 to really cover their bases."

"We utilize special technologies on our panels that give us 40% better production than any other panel on the market. Do we have patents for them....yes we do, I'll...uhmm....look them up for you.....uh...sometime."

"We've got a great deal for you today, but only today, normally we sell this system at $4.50 a watt, but if you folks go ahead and sign-up today, I'll give you the "good buddy" discount, we really aren't supposed to give these out anymore, but I'll be able to sell you this system at $3.80 a watt as we still have some surplus panels in the warehouse, I might get in trouble with my boss, but you are nice folks and deserve only the best."

If you're a consumer and a company is pressuring you to buy today and only today, or they give you some massive price-drop out of nowhere for some sketchy reason, run for the hills!!!!!

"Our panels have a 25 year warranty too, but those other panels will go bad in 5-6 years, I've seen the reports, they are awful products."

The solar industry is so ripe for defamation lawsuits, its not even funny, you'll have salespeople go out and say the most ridiculous and outlandish things about competing products, it just boggles the mind.

"Install time? We should have it up in a couple months...well, it could be 5 months, maybe 6 months, but probably 2 months."

"Install time? We'll have your solar system installed in a couple weeks, no problem, let's just get that financing taken care of.........."

"We only need about 75% of the money up-front today, and then you can pay us the rest when we install this thing."

[russ]

The part about SunPower not affected by initial degradation is a bull****.

I don't know what your game is that you are in love with Solar City but if you want to back up your wild statements with facts and references OK - otherwise don't post.

You sound like a very junior employee of the company that just went through a two week induction course - lots of blather and no knowledge.

[KRenn]

The part about SunPower not affected by initial degradation is a bull****.

And your proof for this is what exactly? SunPower pretty much details exactly what their process is in regards to doping and why their panels have this advantage.

SunPower claim initial degradation as high as 5%, and then more or less flat rate after first 5 years. SolarCity guarantee .5% reduction in power output yearly. With whatever initial drop already counted in. So real numbers in case of SC vs marketing ones for SP.

This whole point is asinine when not even knowing what panels they are using. To claim that random generic modules will give you the same performance and output as the highest end panels is just absurd. Its like trying to convince someone that a low-end Hyundai with a V6 will have the same reliability and performance as a high-end Mercedes. It doesn't even pass the common sense test.

What really matter is how many kWh installer could guarantee. This gives customer a good idea of what to expect, not marketing bs about theoretical output.

And kilowatt for kilowatt, SunPower gives you higher production, that is just reality and the quotes will simply express that.

SolarCity is the biggest residential installer nationwide. With chasing pack best performers could not even get half of market share of SC. And SolarCity is growing real fast - in first half of 2012 they had bigger revenue then in whole 2011. In 2011 their revenue almost doubled over year 2010...

Yet they've been in business only since 2007, offering 20 year leases, with a very short business history, using a wide variety of panel manufacturers of varying quality and performance.

And you are right, residential install only side business for SunPower. They compete mostly with panel manufacturers from China, India, Philippines, Thailand etc. But SunPower are not doing very good. In 2008 their shares costed as high as $97.xx Now shares trade for $7.xx Sure 7 bucks still an improvement of 52 weeks low of $3.71... The good news is that SunPower still alive, but how long will they last?

SunPower is a subsidiary of Total SA, in the past they had difficulty due to the high cost of their modules, but they've got better financial backing than SolarCity, receiving a billion dollar credit line from Total, as well as hundreds of millions of funding from Credit Suisse and Citibank. SunPower also has close to a 30 year history. Only in the solar industry do people argue that the company with a 6 year history somehow has better stability than the one with almost 3 decades worth.

Yes, SunPower moved manufacturing into Philippines, but they face fierce competition from other Asian manufacturers.

They were manufacturing in the Phillipines for a long time, might be difficult to remember since SolarCity didn't exist for much of that time. If you read the article, they shutdown that particular plant due to the cost of operating inefficient and older equipment, they've since opened a major plant in Mexico to serve the North American market.

http://www.energyboom.com/solar/sunpower-moves-mexico

SolarCity on the other hand is completely immune to panel price drops. The lower global price for PV is the better for SolarCity. The more fierce price competition among PV producers, the better. On the other hand global price drops on panels could make SunPower to byte the dust... And things do not look too brite for SP already, check this: http://www.pv-magazine.com/news/deta...ons_100009074/

SolarCity is being audited by the IRS and you talk about SunPower's difficulties? Seriously? SoalrCity has not existed outside of the leasing market and we've seen things tighten up as the Treasury has cracked down on the "creative financing" that leasing companies have utilized, companies aren't being allowed to price systems at $5 a watt and then claim that FMV is actually $10 a watt. What will they do when the tax credits run out and their leasing model is no longer feasible? That isn't just part of their business model, that is their business model.



The biggest weakness of SolarCity is this, they constantly switch up their brands of solar panels, going with whatever bargain basement clearance sale is currently going on, the issue that raises is that they have no loyalty to any brand of panel, they treat solar as a commodity and that just isn't true. How can you have faith in a 20 year arrangement if a company is constantly changing out their manufacturers, primarily on the basis of price. Consumers will pay more for a quality product, and in terms of solar, it doesn't get anymore high quality than SunPower.

[Tezz]

The part about SunPower not affected by initial degradation is a bull****. SunPower claim initial degradation as high as 5%, and then more or less flat rate after first 5 years. SolarCity guarantee .5% reduction in power output yearly. With whatever initial drop already counted in. So real numbers in case of SC vs marketing ones for SP.

What really matter is how many kWh installer could guarantee. This gives customer a good idea of what to expect, not marketing bs about theoretical output.

SolarCity is the biggest residential installer nationwide. With chasing pack best performers could not even get half of market share of SC. And SolarCity is growing real fast - in first half of 2012 they had bigger revenue then in whole 2011. In 2011 their revenue almost doubled over year 2010...

And you are right, residential install only side business for SunPower. They compete mostly with panel manufacturers from China, India, Philippines, Thailand etc. But SunPower are not doing very good. In 2008 their shares costed as high as $97.xx Now shares trade for $7.xx Sure 7 bucks still an improvement of 52 weeks low of $3.71... The good news is that SunPower still alive, but how long will they last? Yes, SunPower moved manufacturing into Philippines, but they face fierce competition from other Asian manufacturers.

SolarCity on the other hand is completely immune to panel price drops. The lower global price for PV is the better for SolarCity. The more fierce price competition among PV producers, the better. On the other hand global price drops on panels could make SunPower to byte the dust... And things do not look too brite for SP already, check this: http://www.pv-magazine.com/news/deta...ons_100009074/

[Naptown]

I was trying not to comment on this thread for fear of incurring your wrath but you said essentially everything I wanted to.

Actually now a Sunpower dealer. Their lease products are very competitive compared to Solar City, Sungevity etc.
Although their equipment costs me almost as much as what I can retail other systems for it is becoming evident that they stand behind both their product and dealers. Got involved mostly because of their lease products (Not yet available in Maryland or DC as of yet) which are outstanding and after being burned by NRG.

If you can't beat em join em

[KRenn]

Why are you spreading FUD about SolarCity? Here is the quote from this forum: 10,213 kWh is guaranteed in year 1, and this level gets reduced by 0.5% annually, all the way down to 9,285 kWh in year 20

I bet SunPower would have a hard time to match 0.5% reduction of guaranteed production over 20 years.

1. Production Guarantee's are a joke, most companies go with a "safe" number that is low enough that they don't have to worry about providing compensation to the homeowner at any time during the lease. The production numbers are cumulative, meaning if you outproduce in the first six or seven years and then production dips, you will not be getting compensated until the overall output numbers have gone below the guaranteed output numbers for the contract as a whole, not in one given year.

2. What NapTown was referring to was the initial light based degradation that you get with most solar panels due to the production process. SunPower panels do not suffer from this initial decrease of about 2-3% once the panels are actually put up on the roof.

3. With SunPower, you generally know the level of the equipment you're getting. SolarCity has gone out and used brands like EverGreen , which are now out of business and there is no warranty for, meaning you're basically screwed if SC goes under.




I would compare the equipment, apples to apples looking at power tolerance, efficiency, functionality in various weather conditions, looking at the efficiency of the inverter, like I said before, so far I haven't seen what equipment SolarCity is using in their quote. From what I've heard, they often don't even list the equipment in the quote, lease or purchase, I want to know what the heck is being used specifically and I want that written into the contract.

[KRenn]

Just a heads up since I assume you are looking into Sunpower and their local installer: We provide a Best Value Guarantee which means if you send me Sunpowers quote I will beat it. If the savings were equal, I would be shocked if you sided with Sunpower's agreement and a less qualified installer over our holistic solution.

I would wager a great deal that the installer (“Elite” or not) will be out of business in Los Angeles once the solar tax credit expires in 2016 and the rebate has dropped. Solar City has a low enough cost of capital to withstand the removal of both the tax credit and all rebates. Finally, Sunpower is actually reducing their size (stock price has dropped to $7.70) while we are growing rapidly and buoyed by two other rapidly growing companies (Tesla and Space X).
Just my two cents...

What a load of $#%^^!

SolarCity is a financing company started by venture capitalists, SunPower is a solar manufacturer started by Stanford scientists. SolarCity's entire business model is dependent on leasing, leasing is going away, and once its gone, so will the majority of their business. SunPower on the other hand manufactures panels, the leasing part is a side business for them.

Do not be wooed by fancy panels, there is so much more to a 20 year partnership.

There's something pretty amusing about a company with a 6 year history talking about a 20 year partnership.

[Tezz]

Googled SunPower degradation, specifically E20. They could not match SolarCity guarantee of panels output.

Plus that is SunPower panels guarantee, installers most likely will play safe and lower those numbers even more.

[KRenn]

Both SC and SP are guaranteeing output or will compensate. Also fully insured. SC is maxing my roof with their 19 panels, so it seems that that is the best they can do.

What I am hearing this all come down to is which company I am more comfortable with SC or SP. I don't mind spending the extra $ if SP Panels are FAR superior and will produce more.

I asked to see an actual lease for SP, which I dont have in my hands yet, but my local "Elite Dealer" said they go through Citibank.

For what its worth, SunPower makes the best panels on the market, the $10 difference for a bigger system is well worth it for the added amount of power, especially considering that SunPower has been around since the 80s and SolarCity has been around since about...2007. SolarCity is also getting hardcore audited for some accounting discrepancies on how they reported the price of these systems to the Treasury.

As far as the whole "Elite Dealer" thing goes, that is mostly advertising nonsense, in fact if you think you might go with SunPower, get at least one more quote from another SunPower dealer, the pricing can vary more than you may think.


The one thing I haven't seen from you is a list of the equipment. Obviously SunPower is providing their modules, and hopefully they are providing you with Power One inverters.


What equipment is SolarCity providing? A lot of the time, they don't really like to bring that up and seem to regard solar panels as a commodity, like one panel and one inverter is simply interchangeable for another, which isn't accurate at all.

[KRenn]

The Sunpower warranty is backed by Sunpower not the local installer. If the installer is out of business they will continue to warrant the install and equipment.
Sunpower is also backed and the majority owned by one of the largest companies in the world. It escapes me at the moment but it is a large French oil company that owns the major share of them.

Total SA. They basically gave SunPower a billion dollar credit line to play with and told them to have fun.

[KRenn]

Sunpower is one of the oldest solar companies in existence. They are not under investigation from the justice department and their system will produce about 1000KWH more per year than the Solar City.
Seems like all things are pretty equal price wise I would go with the Sunpower lease as they are more likely to be around to replace the inverter when it fails.
No brainer IMHO

I was trying not to comment on this thread for fear of incurring your wrath but you said essentially everything I wanted to.