HELP - SolarCity vs. SunPower Quotes

[gabrielrat]

So I am totally new to Solar and have 2 quotes. I live in Southern California. I am looking to only lease.

SunPower
Year 1 Estimated Production: 7,417 kWh
5.23 kW (DC), 4.61 kW (AC) SunPower System
16 x SunPower E20/327 Solar Panel
Non-SunPower Roof Mount Mounting System
1 x SPR-5000m (240V) 5kW

SolarCity
4.56 kW DC
Annual Production
6,366 kWh
19 x 240 Panels

Monthly price is about $10 higher for SunPower, seems like I am paying a little more for a better panel and less panels on my roof... Am I missing something?
Both companies trash each other. SolarCity says that there are too many loopholes in the SunPower lease, but yes their panels are more efficient.

Any wisdom would be helpful!!!!

[Naptown]

Sunpower is one of the oldest solar companies in existence. They are not under investigation from the justice department and their system will produce about 1000KWH more per year than the Solar City.
Seems like all things are pretty equal price wise I would go with the Sunpower lease as they are more likely to be around to replace the inverter when it fails.
No brainer IMHO

[bonaire]

The first one with larger panels means fewer but bigger panels. I think that will happen more and more to keep install costs down. So, yes, the first quote with more output seems better.

[SoCalsolar]

If you post the lease

If you post the leases without any personal information we can give you better answers. Looking at on the surface if you are paying $10 more a month than you are paying now for the SP not so good if you are paying $10 more than SC lease than it could be good because the SP system will produce 1k more than the SC system. Ask SC exactly what panels they are bolting to your roof for the next 20 years and you would liek to see the data sheet on them. If they can't answer this basic question I would move on. With companies like BP, Evergreen, and recently Sharp the panel manufacturer is a critical layer of protection even in the lease.

[gabrielrat]

Here are the leases...

SUNPOWER
Year 1 Estimated Production: 7,417 kWh
14% Bill Remaining
5.23 kW (DC), 4.61 kW (AC) SunPower System
86% Electric Bill Offset
16 x SunPower E20/327 Solar Panel
Non-SunPower Roof Mount Mounting System
1 x SPR-5000m (240V) 5kW
ZERO DOWN LEASE OPTION
Initial Payment $0
Monthly Payment $77
New Utility Bill $15
Total Monthly Cost of Electricity $92
Cost per kWh $0.12
Utility $0.15
Annual Increase 0%
Net Savings over 20 Years $22,088
Included
The Planet’s Most Powerful Solar
valued at $24,300
Performance guaranteed for 20 years, or your money back
Potential to save on your monthly electric bill now without a large up-front expense
Flexibility at end of lease —Renew the lease, buy or return the system
Option to buy your system at year seven for the greater of remaining value amount, or fair market value, as determined by*
a third-party appraiser
If you sell your home at any time during the term of the lease you can buy the system for the remaining value amount,*
or transfer the lease to the new owner
Professional installation with the highest standard of quality and customer service from our best-in-class network of instal


Solar City
SOLARLEASE
SolarCity Price (1st Year) 12.4¢/kWh
LADWP Price (Avoided 1st Yr Avg) 14.3¢/kWh
Initial Payment $0
Monthly Payment $66
Annual Increase —
FINANCIAL BENEFITS
New Lower LADWP Bill $27
Savings First Month $10
Savings First Year $122
Savings Over 20 Years $12,096
Return on Investment (IRR Post-Tax) Infinite
Payback Immediate
Current Price Comparison Payments Over 20 Years

Solar System Proposal
4.56 kW DC
Utility
Your Costs Without Solar
LADWP Price
(Avoided 1st Yr Avg)
14.3¢/kWh
Annual Increase
(Expected)
4.8%
Monthly Payment $103.10
Total Costs
(Over 20 Years)
$40,054
SolarLease
Pay As You Go Plan
SolarCity Price
(1st Yr)
12.4¢/kWh
Annual Increase —
Initial Payment $0
Monthly Payment $66
Total Savings
(Over 20 Years)
$12,096
Premium Service Package
Home Energy Evaluation. A comprehensive energy audit and report
that prioritizes energy improvements. Included for $299.
Included
SolarGuard® Monitoring. We continuously monitor your system and will
respond in the unlikely event that it underperforms.
20 years
Extended Warranty & Repair Service We take care of any repair costs
such as the inverter replacement, so you will not have to worry about it.
20 years
Insurance Coverage. Our all-inclusive system coverage protects against
damage or theft.
Included
Performance Guarantee. We guarantee that your system will produce
as much electricity as we promise or we will pay you back!
Included
* Please note this proposal is an estimate and does not guarantee actual system production or savings. The system design may change based on a detailed engineering site audit. Actual system production and savings will vary based on the final system size, design, configuration,

[bonaire]

How is savings over 20 years actually computed? The 4.8% annual increase shown is a ridiculous SHAM. Shame on SC for driving their sales model with such fear mongering.

Sunpower's lease seems really quite a bit better than the SC.

[Naptown]

There has to be quite a large lease escalation clause in the SC proposal.

[gabrielrat]

There has to be quite a large lease escalation clause in the SC proposal.

Does anybody know if the leases are basically apples to apples?

[Ian S]

Assuming the lease payments remain constant for the entire lease (you must confirm but that's how they read to me), you will always be paying $10 a month more for the Sunpower lease. HOWEVER, the Sunpower system should generate about 1000 kWh more per year. @$0.12 per kWh, that's about a saving of $120/ year in electric bill or about $10/mo. So cost wise, the two proposals appear virtually identical. Because of Sunpower's reputation for top quality, it gets the edge. You should confirm that the SP lease also includes full insurance coverage for damage/loss.

[Tezz]

SunPower is 16.7% more expensive while provide 14.7% more power output then SolarCity.

SolarCity is nationwide leader in residential solar installations, and by huge margin. Plus they are growing real fast.

Up to you to decide who you will choose, but ask both company following questions:

1) What is guaranteed system output in kWh at year 10 and year 20 of the lease?
2) If SunPower or SolarCity fail to meet guaranteed system output, how much they pay as a compensation?

[bonaire]

But is the added power worth more than $10 per month? As the power bill fluctuates onto the future, the added output may be more offsetting to a rising power bill cost per kWh over 20 years. Not as extreme as they speculate of 4.8%, of course.

Maybe SC can increase their system size to match? They'll be using perhaps a lower tier module.

[gabrielrat]

But is the added power worth more than $10 per month? As the power bill fluctuates onto the future, the added output may be more offsetting to a rising power bill cost per kWh over 20 years. Not as extreme as they speculate of 4.8%, of course.

Maybe SC can increase their system size to match? They'll be using perhaps a lower tier module.

Both SC and SP are guaranteeing output or will compensate. Also fully insured. SC is maxing my roof with their 19 panels, so it seems that that is the best they can do.

What I am hearing this all come down to is which company I am more comfortable with SC or SP. I don't mind spending the extra $ if SP Panels are FAR superior and will produce more.

I asked to see an actual lease for SP, which I dont have in my hands yet, but my local "Elite Dealer" said they go through Citibank.

[russ]

but my local "Elite Dealer" said they go through Citibank.

Does that mean something?

[gabrielrat]

Does that mean something?

Probably not. Seems like I have it figured out.

I was just looking for some "color" on choosing SunPower vs SolarCity.

Bottom line for me is that I would be getting better panels with SunPower, but if there was something I was missing on SolarCity being better, or SunPower leases being unfavorable vs. SC, etc...

[SoCalsolar]

These are close but

These are close but if you look at the guaranteed production stated in the actual lease docs which you ought to get from each company the SP production will decrease at a lower rate than whatever panel SC will use (They don't specify the make and model in the contract). What I am saying is that the production over the twenty year term will be higher with SP not just because of size. SP guarantees 84-87% production after 25 years. Looks like you might be LADWP service area I heard some rumblings about a feed in tariff for you folks. Did you explore a purchase option? You can usually finance it for much less than the lease and there is a specific LA based credit union that offers some solar financing. Private Message me if you would like further details. Oh and check the rate at which they will compensate any under production. I want to say that SP is about 1 or 2 cents higher you need to see the lease docs this is too close to call without them. One last consideration is your lifestyle. Is it likely that you will use more power in the future, less power or the same? One example would be you have teenagers and they might be leaving the nest leaving you with fewer people in the home for the majority of the lease which usually leads to a reduction in your consumption. With the lease you pay for power whether you use it or not. LADWP if you take a month long vacation and shut down all the devices in your home your bill will drop not so with the lease.

And for all you "rates aren't going up that much!!!" guys the link below is an article from Nov 2012 detailing the 3 rate increase granted to SCE by our PUC. It's in about the 4th paragraph. Just in case you aren't much of a reader As of Jan 1st 2013 they are implementing a retroactive 5% increase for 2012. That's not a typo folks the 2012 rates were increased an average of 5% in January of 2013. Yes that is the good news because the 2013 increase averages 6.3% and the 2014 will be 5.9%. So unless our multi-Billion dollar power company grows a conscience SCE residential rates are going up on average 17.2% in the next two years. This is why solar works in California. Greedy politicians, Greedy Utility company's and an uneducated lethargic public. However it is sunny and 73 degrees today. The only way in California to pay what Texans pay for electricity is solar power and 6-10 years.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/nov/29/business/la-fi-edison-rate-hike-20121130