Easy solar?

[Sunking]

I don't know how much electrical knowlage you guys have buy here is the scoop. My friend is an electrical inspector at a neighboring town. Before I purchased the system I had him check out their site. He said as far as he was concerned if I put in the AFCI, dedicated line and electrical box enclosure that this would deff. be legal to NEC codes.

Professional Electrical Engineer of 34 years and counting. Your inspector friend is correct, however no plug-n-play GTI can ever meet code, its a plug, not hard wired. I will bet you money that GTI you have does not have a UL 1741 listing.

[bksunny45]

Russ, no need for a net meter, at 418 watts NO WAY of backfeeding the grid. Since my Inspector/electrical engineer, local electrical inspector and the local electric company have seen these panel/inverter kits installed and have approved the installation can you tell me spacifically the NEC code that they have missed. I am sure they would love to know. I would also like to look that code up because for sure I don't want to do anything unsafe.

[russ]

Russ, no need for a net meter, at 418 watts NO WAY of backfeeding the grid. Since my Inspector/electrical engineer, local electrical inspector and the local electric company have seen these panel/inverter kits installed and have approved the installation can you tell me spacifically the NEC code that they have missed. I am sure they would love to know. I would also like to look that code up because for sure I don't want to do anything unsafe.

That is a point I made earlier - the amount will never allow for export. You have a grid tie unit.

They are packaging a panel & microinverter with a plug in attached. The plug in feature is not legal. They make a back handed reference to this on the web site.

Most places the utility wants to know of an installation to ensure it can not affect their grid in any manner. In most places they can be quite nasty if they figure out there is an illegal connection.

My complaint is about the way the company presents the unit - with a picture of a plug in prominently shown. Such an assembly should NEVER use the plug in feature where one back feeds the system. Also their section about rebates may be correct a few places but not in many.

They are pushing the thing in an outlaw manner - maybe they don't even realize what they are doing but their sales approach, presentation seems to be trying to get sales by misrepresentation.

Virtually all solar companies sell exactly the same equipment but they don't advertise it in such a manner.

[Naptown]

Here's my 2 cents
The 240V inverter shown on the site looks suspiciously like an Enphase unit but no way of telling for sure.
This would meet UL1741 and in theory be able to be plugged in as the plug would not be live till 5 minutes after plugging in.
However there is a glaring missing link here in that there is no mention of bonding the panel or inverter. This would be required whether hard wired or a plug in.

[russ]

Here's my 2 cents
The 240V inverter shown on the site looks suspiciously like an Enphase unit but no way of telling for sure.
This would meet UL1741 and in theory be able to be plugged in as the plug would not be live till 5 minutes after plugging in.
However there is a glaring missing link here in that there is no mention of bonding the panel or inverter. This would be required whether hard wired or a plug in.

Back feeding through wiring and a circuit not designed for it?

The OP put in an additional line to the panel with breaker so no back feeding.

[Naptown]

Back feeding through wiring and a circuit not designed for it?

The OP put in an additional line to the panel with breaker so no back feeding.

Yes it would have to be on its own circuit and backfed into the panel at the opposite end of the panel from the main and could not have total of all feeding circuits exceed 120% of the ratings on the buss bars.

[bksunny45]

Russ, you still did not answer my question. PLEASE past and copy the NES code so we ALL can see it.

[Sunking]

Russ, you still did not answer my question. PLEASE past and copy the NES code so we ALL can see it.

Code is not the primary issue as that is secondary, Primary issue is UL 1741. Provide the UL White Book Listing Number well settle the dispute.

[Mike90250]

It could very well be a UL 1741 inverter, but gluing it to a PV panel, and using a plug-in cord, is not legal.

When set up by an Amateur, likely things will NOT be grounded properly, and if several were installed, could easily overload a branch circuit. Picture someone setting up a dozen of these, plugged into a outlet strip. poof the magic smoke comes out of the wall and the house burns up. Then the fire inspector / insurance company see the remains of the bootleg panels and ins. coverage is canceled and someone may even go to jail.

That's what we are warning about. Even if UL listed, the total package is not permitted for "plug in"

[russ]

Russ, you still did not answer my question. PLEASE past and copy the NES code so we ALL can see it.

Look your own self and SHOW it to ALL of us.

Just because you want something to be true doesn't mean it is - that is pure 'green'.

[Sunking]

The problem here is the plug, or exposed electrical SUPPLY or SOURCE contacts.

Imagine this. Look at all your wall receptacles in the house and think about if they were male plugs instead of female receptors.

[Naptown]

The problem here is the plug, or exposed electrical SUPPLY or SOURCE contacts.

Imagine this. Look at all your wall receptacles in the house and think about if they were male plugs instead of female receptors.

I both agree and disagree with that.
Yes exposed supply contacts are not a good thing. This could easily be gotten around with a plug similar to those used on boats, RV's etc where you are plugging in a cord to power the RV boat whatever.

The other issue is UL 1741 (Assuming it is) which would cause the inverter to shut down and not disconnect from the plug when grid is not present. This would mean the instant (OK a couple of microseconds) after the plug is pulled from the outlet the plug would or should be dead.

[TnAndy]

NEC 690.4 (B) You can't mix PV and non PV circuits in the same cable or outlet.....in other words, the receptacle on the wall circuit can't be used for anything OTHER than a PV conductor.

( copy and paste is from a PDF file, and is a bit odd...sorry)

(B)ConductorsofDifferentSystems. Photovoltaic
sourcecircuitsandPVoutputcircuitsshallnotbecon-
tainedinthesameraceway,cabletray,cable,outletbox,
junctionbox,orsimilarfittingasconductors,feeders,or
branchcircuitsofothernon-PVsystems,unlessthecon-
ductorsofthedifferentsystemsareseparatedbyapartiti on.
PVsystemconductorsshallbeidentifiedandgroupedas
requiredby690.4(B)(1)and(B)(2) [ROP4-184]

609.17 All PV systems must have a disconnect prior to the point of entry to a building....I seriously doubt "pulling a plug" qualifies. The AC disconnect must be clearly marked with signage per this section, listing the type (DC/AC) voltage, and amperage.

[Naptown]

NEC 690.4 (B) You can't mix PV and non PV circuits in the same cable or outlet.....in other words, the receptacle on the wall circuit can't be used for anything OTHER than a PV conductor.

( copy and paste is from a PDF file, and is a bit odd...sorry)

(B)ConductorsofDifferentSystems. Photovoltaic
sourcecircuitsandPVoutputcircuitsshallnotbecon-
tainedinthesameraceway,cabletray,cable,outletbox,
junctionbox,orsimilarfittingasconductors,feeders,or
branchcircuitsofothernon-PVsystems,unlessthecon-
ductorsofthedifferentsystemsareseparatedbyapartiti on.
PVsystemconductorsshallbeidentifiedandgroupedas
requiredby690.4(B)(1)and(B)(2) [ROP4-184]

609.17 All PV systems must have a disconnect prior to the point of entry to a building....I seriously doubt "pulling a plug" qualifies. The AC disconnect must be clearly marked with signage per this section, listing the type (DC/AC) voltage, and amperage.

To read this correctly one must know the difference between source and output circuits.
The correct definition of a source circuit would be the circuit between the modules and and a combiner or junction if less than three strings.
An output circuit is the circuit between the combiner or junction if less than three strings to the inverter.

A disconnect is not required unless DC is entered into the building envelope at the closest point that is accessable there shall be a disconnect and all DC wiring within the building envelope shall be installed in metallic raceway.

Since the output of this device is AC I would have to look for more reason to disqualify.

[Sunking]

I both agree and disagree with that.
Yes exposed supply contacts are not a good thing. This could easily be gotten around with a plug similar to those used on boats, RV's etc

Not trying to bust your chops, but boats, RV's, etc fall outside the scope of the NEC. Those applications has a different set of codes and standards to follow.