SCE forcing me off TOU-D-A

[Ampster]

A little off topic, but do you have info on your battery setup or have you posted about it somewhere? Things like what gear your using and what your hookup looks like?

I use the same handle on the diysolarforum. It is discussed there on various threads as are sources for LFP batteries.

My battery system is 42 kWhs of LFP batteries connected to a Outback Skybox. The Skybox is a hybrid inverter that runs my critical loads panel. It is configured for Self Consumption Mode which means to use the grid as last resort. Also connected to that subpanel are 7 kW of PV panels powered by Enphase micro inverters.

When the grid is up the AC from the micros is used by the loads on my critical loads panel and flows through the Skybox to the main panel. From there it is used by my other subpanel which has my non critical loads like EV charging, electric dryer and oven. Anything left over is sold to the grid via the main breaker panel. When the sun goes down and micros are not producing, the Skybox powers the critical loads.
When the grid is down the Skybox becomes the grid forming device that allows the GT micros to operate. This process is called AC coupling.

[jasonvr]

No, I do not think I will get to break even in under ten years. My goal has been to provide resiliency (backup}, reduce my cost of energy, and provide a hedge against erosion of NEM benefits and increasing rates.
I charge two EVs and have recently installed a minisplit heat pump to replace an old inefficient Forced Air Unit. I will be replacing a natural gas water heater with with a HPWH. The upfront cost of 42 kWh of LFP batteries was $125 per kWh and in two years they have not needed any repair or maintenance. I expect to get at least ten years out of them and the hybrid inverter. They have reduced the cost of energy and provided resiliency but the payback on the hedge is yet to be determined. I have had more expensive hobbies.

A little off topic, but do you have info on your battery setup or have you posted about it somewhere? Things like what gear your using and what your hookup looks like?

[silversaver]

Life is a gamble. I have been driving EVs for ten years and not had to replace a pack. I hedged those risks early on by leasing EVs but now have one with 110,000 miles and over six years old and still have 95 percent of the original pack capacity left. The savings over those years and miles would be enough to buy a replacement pack if I ever wanted to replace it. The warranty on the pack still has two years left on it.

EV is great saving on gasoline for sure, but you must spend money first to save money. What I mean is solar system first. Without solar you will be paying at higher rate than what most manufactures suggest by using the lowest rate. Yes, you can choose their low rate on off peak hours to charge your EV, but you are paying way higher rate for your normal family time like 4-9pm. If on Tier plan, you are always paying the higher tier rate on charging.

EV is great for solar owner, but not necessary for non-solar owners. The 50mpg hybrid will work the same without distance and charging limitation. I have lease 4 EV in the past and end up buy out on one of them. It is smart to drive the car for 3 years first and buy it when you know the car is good.

[Ampster]

EV is a gamble. An out of pocket out of warranty battery replacement will erase all savings.

Life is a gamble. I have been driving EVs for ten years and not had to replace a pack. I hedged those risks early on by leasing EVs but now have one with 110,000 miles and over six years old and still have 95 percent of the original pack capacity left. The savings over those years and miles would be enough to buy a replacement pack if I ever wanted to replace it. The warranty on the pack still has two years left on it.

[J.P.M.]

The only negative is installer is out of business

There seems to be a lot of that going around.

[silversaver]

Yea, great deal is an understatement. As I recall, decent stuff comparable to what you got was running about $3.50 - $3.75/STC W at that time.
I remember writing at the time saying you must've had a horseshoe where the sun don't shine the day you signed at $2.84/W.
That price was so low I thought you were B.S. ing until I saw it on the CSI data set.
Too bad you didn't buy a lotto ticket that day.

Good memory haha

The reason is Bosch 255W panels, that is the year Bosch back out of solar manufacturing. The only negative is installer is out of business

[J.P.M.]

I recall those days when withdraw 6000+ kWh under TOU-D-A and bill still break even. My ROI were due in less than 5 years so I have no complaint. I recall about $2.84 per Watt before incentive were great deal back in 2013.

Yea, great deal is an understatement. As I recall, decent stuff comparable to what you got was running about $3.50 - $3.75/STC W at that time.
I remember writing at the time saying you must've had a horseshoe where the sun don't shine the day you signed at $2.84/W.
That price was so low I thought you were B.S. ing until I saw it on the CSI data set.
Too bad you didn't buy a lotto ticket that day.

[silversaver]

You’re an outlier with your oversized hobby-grade setup. I was curious about a lean system optimized for ROI under the new NEM2.0/TOU reality. In 2015 an optimal system would give you about 7 year payback with SCE, give or take. Not sure what it is now. With an EV I was net-consuming about 3000kWh annually with $100-200 statement credit at the end of each NEM period on TOU-D-A, that is history now.

I recall those days when withdraw 6000+ kWh under TOU-D-A and bill still break even. My ROI were due in less than 5 years so I have no complaint. I recall about $2.84 per Watt before incentive were great deal back in 2013.

[gvl]

No, I do not think I will get to break even in under ten years. My goal has been to provide resiliency (backup}, reduce my cost of energy, and provide a hedge against erosion of NEM benefits and increasing rates.
I charge two EVs and have recently installed a minisplit heat pump to replace an old inefficient Forced Air Unit. I will be replacing a natural gas water heater with with a HPWH. The upfront cost of 42 kWh of LFP batteries was $125 per kWh and in two years they have not needed any repair or maintenance. I expect to get at least ten years out of them and the hybrid inverter. They have reduced the cost of energy and provided resiliency but the payback on the hedge is yet to be determined. I have had more expensive hobbies.

You’re an outlier with your oversized hobby-grade setup. I was curious about a lean system optimized for ROI under the new NEM2.0/TOU reality. In 2015 an optimal system would give you about 7 year payback with SCE, give or take. Not sure what it is now. With an EV I was net-consuming about 3000kWh annually with $100-200 statement credit at the end of each NEM period on TOU-D-A, that is history now.

[gvl]

I don't mean that "normal family", I should have say for my family. The original plan for solar were to cover the home electricity consumption. I guess the EV surface + high gasoline price make power consumption much higher than before. I do agree the EV will save money compare with gasoline prices. If each kWh price increase and gasoline price drop below $4 which will make EV less valuable when there are 50mpg+ hybrid cars. I start driving EV believe it will save the environment for my kids, but understand the source of power, resource and recycle for battery got me confuse.

EV is a gamble. An out of pocket out of warranty battery replacement will erase all savings.

[silversaver]

I don't mean that "normal family", I should have say for my family. The original plan for solar were to cover the home electricity consumption. I guess the EV surface + high gasoline price make power consumption much higher than before. I do agree the EV will save money compare with gasoline prices. If each kWh price increase and gasoline price drop below $4 which will make EV less valuable when there are 50mpg+ hybrid cars. I start driving EV believe it will save the environment for my kids, but understand the source of power, resource and recycle for battery got me confuse.

[Ampster]

The TOU-D-A is not the same as today's new TOU plan.

Nothing is the same. Change is inevitable so all I can do try to do is anticipate the change and plan strategies to hedge against further erosion of benefits. As I said, TOU only works if you can leverage the benefits. I do not have a choice, except to try to do that.

...... The new TOU only offer you high credit between 4-9 pm. Your solar output isn't much after 4pm. That is the hours with the highest power consumption for normal family. Unless you are focus on EV charging as majority of your power consumption. Your solar production get less credit to cover the peak hours usage which mean you either get super large solar system or batteries to offset the difference which will increase you overall cost of solar system with way longer return.

I have never been accused of being a normal family. That is exactly why I have a "super large solar system" AND batteries. I now also charge my EVs during the day from solar and only charge at night if going on a trip and wanting to start the morning with a full battery, I also get a longer return than might be acceptable to some but my cost of funds is probably different also. I am not disagreeing with anything you are saying. I just want other readers to realize there are many ways to deal with the issues we all face. It all depends on where you are standing.

[silversaver]

SCE still offers and EV rate don't they? TOU only works if you can leverage the rates. That is harder to do with the way the rates are designed. I expect to consume more from the grid than I send back but my batteries will help me reduce the cost of that Net power. It is the seasonal differences between production and consumption that batteries cannot span. I have to use the grid as a battery in my situation. However, during summer my batteries should eliminate the peak period consumption at $0.53 per kWh.

The TOU-D-A is not the same as today's new TOU plan. The old plan you can get higher credit on solar production and charge EV during the super off peak rate between 10pm to 8am. The new TOU only offer you high credit between 4-9 pm. Your solar output isn't much after 4pm. That is the hours with the highest power consumption for normal family. Unless you are focus on EV charging as majority of your power consumption. Your solar production get less credit to cover the peak hours usage which mean you either get super large solar system or batteries to offset the difference which will increase you overall cost of solar system with way longer return.

[Ampster]

.............
I have been driving 2 EV and 1 gasoline car since 2013. The old TOU-D-A make lots sense doing that. I am down to one EV now after switch back to Tier plan.

SCE still offers and EV rate don't they? TOU only works if you can leverage the rates. That is harder to do with the way the rates are designed. I expect to consume more from the grid than I send back but my batteries will help me reduce the cost of that Net power. It is the seasonal differences between production and consumption that batteries cannot span. I have to use the grid as a battery in my situation. However, during summer my batteries should eliminate the peak period consumption at $0.53 per kWh.

[silversaver]

I agree, battery systems are designed to store energy. Storing energy and using it to offset high rates may allow someone to save money depending on the rate structure.

I had an order for two Tesla Powerwalls and was going to get an SGIP rebate. I did the math and figured I could do a DIY system for a lot less than the net cost after rebates. I have been driving EVs for ten years and probably driven 200,000 miles and saved a lot of money that i would have spent on gasoline. I would rather have two EVs in the garage than three Tesla Powerwalls.

I really don't see how 3 Tesla and 5 Powerwalls will save him money in short run. Spent over $100k for solar and batteries system on a single family home just too much haha

I have been driving 2 EV and 1 gasoline car since 2013. The old TOU-D-A make lots sense doing that. I am down to one EV now after switch back to Tier plan.