Which system- grid....hybrid? (I'm new)

[SunEagle]

Good advice. Sounds like grid tie is the best option with generator back up.

Now to find a designer.

Peter

By the way that Harbor freight solar system is useless for a grid tie and for that matter even for off grid it is way too little to provide you any power except to light those 2 lights that come with it.

[pda1]

If money is no object there are plenty of folks that will be glad to take it. When you start out that tax rebates arent important at this time of life while suggesting a self install implies mixed priorities. A Grid tied self install is lot easier to do than a hybrid system. Using panels with integral microinverters is just about as plug and play as you are going to get in the solar game, especially if you don't try to sell SRECs so you don't have to hassle with setting up communications. You have the backup generator so you are not a great subject for hybrid. If you want to avoid using it plan on tripling the upfront cost and have a much larger array.

You also mention taxes, depending on how your assessor approaches the installation you most likely will pay based on installed cost and a hybrid system is going to cost a bundle more with little return. The only thing a hybrid system will do for you is force your hand on equipment selection and costs and have a far more difficult system to diagnose. The only advantage with a hybrid system is that the grid is going to be incentivizing hybrid installations more generously in the future. This has happened in CA and HI but expect it will take a lot longer to be something in PA. Since you don't care about incentives it then points to a grid tie self install, if you have the skills and equipment and your local authorities let you do the work. I expect someone with the right skills can do a self install, I did 4 of them and only needed an electrical sign off on one to sell SRECS. My guess is unless you are an electrician, the actual tie into the panel may be outside your abilities. There are a few options and they all need to be weighed against what you are installing, what you have for equipment installed and what you need to add. Get the right electrician and he may gladly let you do the grunt work up on the roof and then he does the tie in.

Education is cheap an I also recommend buying the Dummies book.

Good advice. Sounds like grid tie is the best option with generator back up.

Now to find a designer.

Peter

[peakbagger]

If money is no object there are plenty of folks that will be glad to take it. When you start out that tax rebates arent important at this time of life while suggesting a self install implies mixed priorities. A Grid tied self install is lot easier to do than a hybrid system. Using panels with integral microinverters is just about as plug and play as you are going to get in the solar game, especially if you don't try to sell SRECs so you don't have to hassle with setting up communications. You have the backup generator so you are not a great subject for hybrid. If you want to avoid using it plan on tripling the upfront cost and have a much larger array.

You also mention taxes, depending on how your assessor approaches the installation you most likely will pay based on installed cost and a hybrid system is going to cost a bundle more with little return. The only thing a hybrid system will do for you is force your hand on equipment selection and costs and have a far more difficult system to diagnose. The only advantage with a hybrid system is that the grid is going to be incentivizing hybrid installations more generously in the future. This has happened in CA and HI but expect it will take a lot longer to be something in PA. Since you don't care about incentives it then points to a grid tie self install, if you have the skills and equipment and your local authorities let you do the work. I expect someone with the right skills can do a self install, I did 4 of them and only needed an electrical sign off on one to sell SRECS. My guess is unless you are an electrician, the actual tie into the panel may be outside your abilities. There are a few options and they all need to be weighed against what you are installing, what you have for equipment installed and what you need to add. Get the right electrician and he may gladly let you do the grunt work up on the roof and then he does the tie in.

Education is cheap an I also recommend buying the Dummies book.

[pda1]

My question, what is your reason for installing solar? If you want to cancel
your electric bill, a net metering setup is the way to go. If you want to use a
lot less gas, your solar will need to be huge, mine heats the house but the
ground mount is much larger than the roof, and needs the flexibility to point
the best direction while being accessible for removing snow and some service.

If you want a backup system, solar is lousy. You would need huge batteries,
a huge expense needing constant maintenance, and needing a generator
anyway to prevent their destruction. Solar is most likely to be at minimum
performance just when you need some backup. Stick with your generator,
use propane, gasoline, or diesel for additional backup. good luck, Bruce Roe

Now there's a practical reply for ya! Thanks. I love your comment of "If you want a backup system, solar is lousy". Anyone that's been in this wicked world long enough will perceive that cloud cover can ruin your whole day.

So...(this is supposed to be funny)....I'm off to Harbor Freight to get one of their plug-and-play solar panel systems. Which might well be the best approach. I've got a 20% off coupon somewhere around here.

My guess is off gird power generation based on "dooms-day" scenarios is very expensive.

Again, thank you.

Peter

[bcroe]

My question, what is your reason for installing solar? If you want to cancel
your electric bill, a net metering setup is the way to go. If you want to use a
lot less gas, your solar will need to be huge, mine heats the house but the
ground mount is much larger than the roof, and needs the flexibility to point
the best direction while being accessible for removing snow and some service.

If you want a backup system, solar is lousy. You would need huge batteries,
a huge expense needing constant maintenance, and needing a generator
anyway to prevent their destruction. Solar is most likely to be at minimum
performance just when you need some backup. Stick with your generator,
use propane, gasoline, or diesel for additional backup. good luck, Bruce Roe

[pda1]

exactly what JPM said

What does this mean?

[pda1]

Welcome to the neighborhood.

The biggest and most common thing new folks who show up here needing more of is education in the basics. This is not, IMO only, a good place to get that. This place is a gap filler.

Before you buy anything, a good place to get a start on those basics is with a read of "Solar Power Your Home for Dummies", either as a free PDF download or ~ $25 for an updated version at bookstores or Amazon. Then, come back here and ask questions that fill in the knowledge gaps and answer more questions your education will create. Your questions will have more meat on them after the read and other efforts, and the answers you get here will also be better, more focused to your more informed questions and probably have more info in them that may well generate more questions on your part. And so it goes.

In the meantime and until then, a couple of questions/comments:

If your annual usage is ~ 450 kWh/month *12 months = 5,400 kWh/yr. and your POwer COmpany (the "POCO") offers net metering, to offset that entire 5,400 kWh/yr. load (which may/may not be the most cost effective solution or choice depending on what you want and what's available to you, and your budget) and given your location and stated roof size, but depending mostly on what your inclination after your education, you may find you'll need something like a 4 STC kW system that covers about 250 - 300 ft.^2 depending on chosen panel and layout.

Depending array layout, and also depending on any building codes and fire regulations for required setbacks and other permitting issues, you may wind up needing most of that 435 ft.^2 of roof area, but you'll probably be OK. Just don't assume so until you get into preliminary design. See PVWatts for a user friendly modeling tool for non solar folks. Read all the help screens a couple of times and use 10 % for a system loss parameter -something you'll find explained in the help section. Do a few runs and play around and in ~ 20 minutes or so, you'll be on your way.

NOMB, but with annual usage of 5,400 kWh/yr., which would indicate not a lot of use of high powered appliances unless you're welding stuff in your spare time, why such a big generator ?

DIY install of PV is a lot more complicated than installing a garage door opener. Some folks who are pretty self reliant have come here after thinking it was a cake walk and left pissed off because they didn't know what was required and found out from someone who suffers fools badly that they bought a lot of the wrong stuff, got in way over their head and wasted a lot wasted a lot of time/$$'s. Other DIYers have done OK, and some others in between. Just sayin. Seems that just because someone can, for example, wire a house, doesn't mean they can do a PV system and not make a dangerous mess of it.

On battery backup: the 5 days isn't as important as how large in terms of kWh of usage those 5 days will burn through. Battery storage can be pretty expensive and with a generator already on hand, I'd skip the storage for now, or at least until you've done enough research on the solar resource, PV and batteries so your own ignorane on those subjects isn't fertile ground for the solar peddlers to get into your wallet.

Educate yourself before you spend dime one. You'll have a safer, better, more cost effective and more fit for purpose system.

Please don't take any of the following as derogatory or belligerent- I'm just trying to get to the point without the usual disclaimer/cautionary nonsense.
.
Yes, all of the "educate yourself" stuff was understood beforehand and it's not surprising that many people fail because they think, "oh boy, free electricity....just a little work and we'll not have to pay another bill again...and I'm pretty good working with electricity because, well, honey, remember how I fixed the kitchen light switch?!" At my age I've heard that way too often and do understand, "a fool and his money are soon parted".

Why generator so big? "Better to oversize than to wish you had" and at the time when I installed it we had an electric stove and electric dryer. If I remember correctly, the 10kW generator would only output 7.5kW using natural gas. I know the output figure was greatly reduced using natural gas.

As to generator backup as you mentioned before, my concern is "they'll cut off the gas too"...or some other such excuse (I lived through the 1973 bogus oil embargo and remember quite well the tankers anchored off the East coast (New Jersey) until the the price of oil went up).

As to batteries; the sad commentary of my life is always, "dead batteries" and the price of them is a gigantic concern. Yes, a load analysis would be necessary to determine size....I just gave the "5 days" as a general time length.

But again, to make it simple for myself, do you fellas have a recommendation for a solar designer? Not some installer- I don't want to waste his time with no intention of using his services- too many people do that sort of stuff and it's deceitful.

Before any permits or application for a permit certainly contact the local government to tell them what I want to do and see what they won't let me do. The bad part is once a PV array is installed our property taxes are going to go up.

Lastly, this is supposed to be funny...but true- in my area I've seen several PV installations which have panels installed on a North facing roof with a 6/12 pitch. In talking with the homeowners they have no idea what's on their roof or how much power the array is.

Peter

[Mike90250]

exactly what JPM said

[J.P.M.]

Welcome to the neighborhood.

The biggest and most common thing new folks who show up here needing more of is education in the basics. This is not, IMO only, a good place to get that. This place is a gap filler.

Before you buy anything, a good place to get a start on those basics is with a read of "Solar Power Your Home for Dummies", either as a free PDF download or ~ $25 for an updated version at bookstores or Amazon. Then, come back here and ask questions that fill in the knowledge gaps and answer more questions your education will create. Your questions will have more meat on them after the read and other efforts, and the answers you get here will also be better, more focused to your more informed questions and probably have more info in them that may well generate more questions on your part. And so it goes.

In the meantime and until then, a couple of questions/comments:

If your annual usage is ~ 450 kWh/month *12 months = 5,400 kWh/yr. and your POwer COmpany (the "POCO") offers net metering, to offset that entire 5,400 kWh/yr. load (which may/may not be the most cost effective solution or choice depending on what you want and what's available to you, and your budget) and given your location and stated roof size, but depending mostly on what your inclination after your education, you may find you'll need something like a 4 STC kW system that covers about 250 - 300 ft.^2 depending on chosen panel and layout.

Depending array layout, and also depending on any building codes and fire regulations for required setbacks and other permitting issues, you may wind up needing most of that 435 ft.^2 of roof area, but you'll probably be OK. Just don't assume so until you get into preliminary design. See PVWatts for a user friendly modeling tool for non solar folks. Read all the help screens a couple of times and use 10 % for a system loss parameter -something you'll find explained in the help section. Do a few runs and play around and in ~ 20 minutes or so, you'll be on your way.

NOMB, but with annual usage of 5,400 kWh/yr., which would indicate not a lot of use of high powered appliances unless you're welding stuff in your spare time, why such a big generator ?

DIY install of PV is a lot more complicated than installing a garage door opener. Some folks who are pretty self reliant have come here after thinking it was a cake walk and left pissed off because they didn't know what was required and found out from someone who suffers fools badly that they bought a lot of the wrong stuff, got in way over their head and wasted a lot wasted a lot of time/$$'s. Other DIYers have done OK, and some others in between. Just sayin. Seems that just because someone can, for example, wire a house, doesn't mean they can do a PV system and not make a dangerous mess of it.

On battery backup: the 5 days isn't as important as how large in terms of kWh of usage those 5 days will burn through. Battery storage can be pretty expensive and with a generator already on hand, I'd skip the storage for now, or at least until you've done enough research on the solar resource, PV and batteries so your own ignorane on those subjects isn't fertile ground for the solar peddlers to get into your wallet.

Educate yourself before you spend dime one. You'll have a safer, better, more cost effective and more fit for purpose system.

[pda1]

I'm more than considering installing a PV system to our house and am new to the system design and recommendation process.

I've read about various systems such as grid tied, hybrid and understand them somewhat.

- Our zip code is 19380.
- We use about 450 kWh per month.
- Well supplied water (220V 15A)
- Cooking, hot water heating and clothes dryer are natural gas fired
- 'Have a Generac 10kW standby generator natural gas fueled (automatic start upon loss of grid power).
- Our roof exposure is South, roof pitch is 12/12 (45°) the roof is new. Roof area is about 435 sf and with cutting down of a few trees we'd have a total of 603 sf roof area for panels.

At this point in my life tax rebates aren't a concern and I would do the installation myself.

That said, the scenario I'd like to plan for (unless it's not practical) PV supplied power with battery backup being able to supply 5 days of grid power loss (no electrical generator) while using reduced power (not using a dishwasher or other heavy power devices) but must be able to supply power to a medium sized refrigerator and freezer. Also, it would be good to be able to have it grid tied so that the PV system can supply our house with power but also feed excess power to the grid.

It would be nice to hire a solar designer (fee for service) that could specifically address these questions or guide me in reasonable direction. The most I can find on the web are "installers".

Do you have any recommendations or suggestions or other ideas?

Thank you,

Peter