AHJ told me I need rapid shut down on my 10KW GTpergola array.

[khanh dam]

Code states: "If the PV array has no exposed wiring, no exposed conductive parts, is not closer than 8 ft to any other exposed grounded conductive parts and at least 8 ft from the ground, then compliance with RSS is not required."

This would require raceway for all wiring (within 1 foot of and) in the PV array up to the PV module junction box, which few PV modules currently support.

I have already seen Tigo advertise solar panels with their RSS electronics integrated in the junction box. I'm guessing all solar panels will have that pre installed soon. Adding the electronics in the junction boxes probably costs a few dollars. Cheaper than adding external raceway/conduit that would limit orientation of panels.

interestingly there was a solar panel made about 10 years ago that had all wiring integrated inside the frame, they are now out of business and their youtube videos deleted.

[Ampster]

NO NO NO !!!!!

You are NOT allowed to make up terms for your convenience. Or to make you feel important. Or whatever. This is a Solar forum. We deal with Solar terms.

The Code and industry standards apply here. "Rapid Shutdown" is the code method to quickly limit voltages at solar panels and roof top wires. These devices are UL certified/approved.

you can kludge together anything you want, but you cannot call that contraption Rapid Shutdown - that name is already in use, and solar neophytes have enough to learn without your BS about few feet of wire and push button switches being your version of rapid shutdown.

You and I seem to keep going around and around about your playing fast and loose with safety, bad advice and now inventing unapproved gear. Throwing a couple "I don't know" into the middle does not help your cause, thems just weasel words and do nothing.
............

Perhaps my post was not clear. I agree with the rapid shut down requirements and any thing that increases the protection of firefighters and grid workers. My post was intended to show that the installation of a hybrid inverter could inadvertently defeat the rapid shut down features of an existing GT system if one did not add a RSD actuator. Mine is an unusual situation because the solar panels powering the hybrid are on a pergola and there seems to be some lack of clarity about whether those panels need panel level shutdown or not. If they do, I would have no problem installing panel level shut down devices, As I mentioned, I won't know the answer from my AHJ until the hybrid inverter is installed in a new home that we will be purchasing..In the meantime the GT inverter will remain and its native RSD capabilities will be unaltered by the temporary installation of the hybrid inverter in the subject residence and the temporary installation of some solar panels adjacent to that residence on the pergola.. I will edit the original post to clarify.

I did not purchase an ordinary push button but spent considerably more on a large device clearly labeled "Solar Panel Rapid Shut Down". Fire Raptor only sells UL RSD devices, . I can discuss in more detail how the RSD functions work on my hybrid inverter if any one is interested.

[Ampster]

Code states: ..........

Which code are you referring to? NEC or your local code?

[Ampster]

NO NO NO !!!!!

You are NOT allowed to make up terms for your convenience. Or to make you feel important. Or whatever. This is a Solar forum. We deal with Solar terms.

The Code and industry standards apply here. "Rapid Shutdown" is the code method to quickly limit voltages at solar panels and roof top wires. These devices are UL certified/approved.

you can kludge together anything you want, but you cannot call that contraption Rapid Shutdown - that name is already in use, and solar neophytes have enough to learn without your BS about few feet of wire and push button switches being your version of rapid shutdown.

You and I seem to keep going around and around about your playing fast and loose with safety, bad advice and now inventing unapproved gear. Throwing a couple "I don't know" into the middle does not help your cause, thems just weasel words and do nothing.

And it applies to charge controllers too, if the DC wires are on the roof or enter the house:

https://www.altestore.com/blog/2020/07/rapid-shutdown-blog-part-2-charge-controllers/#.X8s8OvV7nIU

use a search engine and search for "solar rapid shutdown requirements" before you let the monkeys loose on the typewriters

I have made changes to the quoted posts to provide better clarity on my support of RSD requirements.

[khanh dam]

nec 2017= local code
Tested my 2010 sma sunny boy inverters today. When I turn the dc disconnect switch off takes about 35 seconds for the inverters to self discharge to about 35v. there is a gizmo one can buy that will make them discharge faster, but I think it would add several hundred dollars to the RSS system.

[Mike90250]

nec 2017= local code
Tested my 2010 sma sunny boy inverters today. When I turn the dc disconnect switch off takes about 35 seconds for the inverters to self discharge to about 35v. there is a gizmo one can buy that will make them discharge faster, but I think it would add several hundred dollars to the RSS system.

Maybe the inspector will let that pass, it's pretty darn close to the spec.
I got this graphic from this page https://www.altestore.com/blog/2020/.../#.X8xQpPV7nIU

Rapid Shutdown sketch.jpg

[PVAndy]

Maybe the inspector will let that pass, it's pretty darn close to the spec.
I got this graphic from this page https://www.altestore.com/blog/2020/.../#.X8xQpPV7nIU

Rapid Shutdown sketch.jpg

Depends which code your on. Array or Module level Rapid Shut Down. We've had inspectors use stopwatches to time

Andy

[Ampster]

If I read the code correctly the shutdown time is 10 seconds. I suspect using a DC disconnect is not going to pass even part 1 of the code. But what do i know?

[SunEagle]

If I read the code correctly the shutdown time is 10 seconds. I suspect using a DC disconnect is not going to pass even part 1 of the code. But what do i know?

Having a way to truly isolate the DC power with a disconnect might be slow but most electrical people prefer them to electronic disconnects because it provides another level of safety.

[Ampster]

Having a way to truly isolate the DC power with a disconnect might be slow but most electrical people prefer them to electronic disconnects because it provides another level of safety.

I agree and that is why they are often built into inverters. My only point was that in the context of meeting the RSD requirements of 10 seconds DC disconnects on older inverters may not meet the RSD requirements. I am not sure what @khanh dam was trying to suggest. I do agree with @PVAndy that if an inspector used a stop watch, that installation would not pass the RSD test because it took longer than 10 seconds. In the first part of the code there is also a distance requirement, Also in of Part 2 (panel level shutdown) would also not be met. It is not clear which part the NEC the local AHJ has adopted or what the distances are. This thread started out talking about whether any of that applied to a pergola. What are your thoughts about RSD?

[khanh dam]

my inspectors do not carry a multimeter so not sure what good a stop watch would do them.
2017 code is 30v within 30 seconds. ten seconds is wrong.
since code states up to 6 disconnect switches can be used I can just specify the 2 dc disconnects on my SMA inverters if they want to get nitpicky.

[Ampster]

my inspectors do not carry a multimeter so not sure what good a stop watch would do them.
2017 code is 30v within 30 seconds. ten seconds is wrong.
since code states up to 6 disconnect switches can be used I can just specify the 2 dc disconnects on my SMA inverters if they want to get nitpicky.

Yes you are correct the module level shutdown is 30 seconds. My reference was the requirement from the 2014 version when the rule was 10 seconds for system shutdown.By now I am sure most jurisdictions have adopted the 2017 version. That is good it is more flexible. I will have to time how long it takes my AC coupled GT inverter the shutdown once the RSD on the hybrid inverter is activated.

[SunEagle]

I agree and that is why they are often built into inverters. My only point was that in the context of meeting the RSD requirements of 10 seconds DC disconnects on older inverters may not meet the RSD requirements. I am not sure what @khanh dam was trying to suggest. I do agree with @PVAndy that if an inspector used a stop watch, that installation would not pass the RSD test because it took longer than 10 seconds. In the first part of the code there is also a distance requirement, Also in of Part 2 (panel level shutdown) would also not be met. It is not clear which part the NEC the local AHJ has adopted or what the distances are. This thread started out talking about whether any of that applied to a pergola. What are your thoughts about RSD?

IMO solar on a structure that is not lived in or a ground mounted system shouldn't require RSD because a first responder will not be on the roof and will not get electrocuted. But again each AHJ has their own thoughts and rules. If they say it is required then you usually do not have a leg to stand on to dispute it even if the NEC doesn't require it.

[PVAndy]

IMO solar on a structure that is not lived in or a ground mounted system shouldn't require RSD because a first responder will not be on the roof and will not get electrocuted. But again each AHJ has their own thoughts and rules. If they say it is required then you usually do not have a leg to stand on to dispute it even if the NEC doesn't require it.

We''ve never had to install RSD on a ground mount or car port. In many states you can contact the state building official who can guide (overrule) the local AHJ.

Andy

[khanh dam]

Chances of an emergency worker getting hurt/shocked on my pergola = almost zero
Chance of me getting hurt/shocked on my pergola by having to remove 30 panels and install Module level electronics on the back of each panel and then reattach them = much greater than zero. I really should of put more space around my panels. This is going to be a Pain in the butt to do. Even removing the Mc4 connectors is a pain in the butt with their special tool.