powerwall2 behavior when paired with solar

[solardreamer]

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For the application of non emergency load shifting, or more correctly grid usage avoidance during peak pricing times of grid power, while battery cost effectiveness is still a ways off for most applications at this time, ...

Is there any place in the US where such system can be economically justified based on hard cost factors? It's certainly not in California with NEM but not sure about places without NEM.

[Ampster]

I have not found anything so far about a planned new round of funding. let us know if you do.
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This is old news, before the recent fire. I haven't figured out the definition of Tier 1 or Tier 2 but it is a start:

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/california-approves-100m-in-energy-storage-incentives-for-wildfire-resilien

[scrambler]

Thanks, this is interesting, and below is the Tier map

https://ia.cpuc.ca.gov/firemap/

Unfortunately I am not in either Tier 2 or Tier 3, close but no cigar

[J.P.M.]

Is there any place in the US where such system can be economically justified based on hard cost factors? It's certainly not in California with NEM but not sure about places without NEM.

As for going completely off grid with alternate energy and batteries as normally construed and for common residential applications where grid power is available and mostly reliable, probably not many places in the developed world at this time.

As for emergency duty applications where uninterruptable power is deemed essential, cost becomes less important than reliability.

As for the economic viability of battery systems to avoid peak power costs, that'll be at least partially contingent on the price differential between the cost of power to charge the battery and the cost of the peak power that the battery offsets.

Simple answer: Take a SWAG at how much money you'll have saved in electric bills over "X" years by acquiring and servicing a battery system, and subtract that from the cost of the system. If the result is negative, it might make sense.

In doing so however, use life cycle costing methods such as LOCE analysis or other means to bring all expenses and revenues to present values.

[Ampster]

Is there any place in the US where such system can be economically justified based on hard cost factors? It's certainly not in California with NEM but not sure about places without NEM.

It can be in California especially with TOU rates which are required under NEM 2.0. I have heard three cases where posters on this and two other forums have committed to a Tesla Powerwall based on the recent power shutoffs.. Those aren't necessarily economic justifications but probably emotional based on inconvenience and loss of frozen food.
During the past two years 2,000 SGIP incentives were rewarded which when coupled with ITC made the payback on those systems more economical.

[solardreamer]

It can be in California especially with TOU rates which are required under NEM 2.0. I have heard three cases where posters on this and two other forums have committed to a Tesla Powerwall based on the recent power shutoffs.. Those aren't necessarily economic justifications but probably emotional based on inconvenience and loss of frozen food.
During the past two years 2,000 SGIP incentives were rewarded which when coupled with ITC made the payback on those systems more economical.

I am sure there are some Californian households that have atypical electricity usage patterns that can justify the economics of a home battery system but I am talking about mainstream households. I see vendors offer plenty of home solar payback/savings calculators/tools but almost none for home battery. Typical home battery marketing I have seen talks mostly about non-economic factors. Home solar was around for a long time but significant mainstream adoption didn't happen until payback period was dramatically reduced. EV's followed similar trend. So, I wonder if and when home battery could be justified on economic factors for typical households. Or there is better alternative to home battery (e.g. microgrids, peaker plant replacement, v2g/v2h, etc.) to leverage battery for similar load shifting or resiliency benefits to mainstream households.

[scrambler]

Besides the environmental issue, installing solar is about saving money in the long run by using a free source of energy.

Installing a backup system is about buying comfort and security. You are spending money to have the luxury of having your own power when it is not available from the grid.

So the cost of a battery backup is not about ROI, but about how much you are willing to spend (or can afford) to get the comfort you seek.

That said batteries combined with solar, and with the ability to do grid balancing, do offer the ability to make some of your money back, even if not a lot, which is better than nothing.

[J.P.M.]

Besides the environmental issue, installing solar is about saving money in the long run by using a free source of energy.

Installing a backup system is about buying comfort and security. You are spending money to have the luxury of having your own power when it is not available from the grid.

So the cost of a battery backup is not about ROI, but about how much you are willing to spend (or can afford) to get the comfort you seek.

That said batteries combined with solar, and with the ability to do grid balancing, do offer the ability to make some of your money back, even if not a lot, which is better than nothing.

The fuel is free, the equipment to turn it into electricity is not.

The present value of acquiring and operating a PV system might be equated to the present value of the avoided cost of future electricity purchases. If the analysis shows that PV costing more than the present value of future electricity purchases, then the PV is not cost effective with the assumptions and time frame used.

Part of the problem is and always will be getting and using assumptions about future conditions and things like utility rates, inflation, alternate investments, etc., as well as how long to make the analysis run.

It seems to me that at this time, batteries aren't cost effective for most users as a means to avoid peak rates.

Batteries do seem to have some use as a means of backup power in outages, but an ICE generator is, at this time, more reliable and more cost effective, even if it is noisier.

[scrambler]

t an ICE generator is, at this time, more reliable and more cost effective, even if it is noisier.

But for some it is not as comfortable as a battery backup, which does not require you to think about buying fuel (if even available in an outage), does not emit any toxic fumes, does not require maintenance, can be relied upon to start and stop smoothly if you are away from home …

So no question that a gas powered generator is cheaper as a backup solution, but it does not offer the same level of comfort as a lithium battery does (especially if connected to solar).
And yes comfort is a relative thing that will vary based on each person and their specific situation

[SunEagle]

But for some it is not as comfortable as a battery backup, which does not require you to think about buying fuel (if even available in an outage), does not emit any toxic fumes, does not require maintenance, can be relied upon to start and stop smoothly if you are away from home …

So no question that a gas powered generator is cheaper as a backup solution, but it does not offer the same level of comfort as a lithium battery does (especially if connected to solar).
And yes comfort is a relative thing that will vary based on each person and their specific situation

I don't know. I would be less comfortable worrying about a battery that would drain and not provide me the power I needed every time then to have a 12kw generator that I can run for many hours and easily purchased bottled propane or connect it to my large RV propane tank.

[scrambler]

As I said, comfort is a subjective thing that will depend on each individual personality and needs.
Nothing wrong with preferences either way

[Ampster]

I don't know. I would be less comfortable worrying about a battery that would drain and not provide me the power I needed every time then to have a 12kw generator that I can run for many hours and easily purchased bottled propane or connect it to my large RV propane tank.

There you go. It all depends on one's experiences. The great thing is we all have choices. I don't worry about my Lithium batteries but I have survived a few surprises with propane that is heavier than air. I grew up with propane and our dog was almost asphyxiated from a propane leak in the kitchen of our home. I got rid of propane on my sail boat and went to compressed natural gas for safety. I have seen pictures of exploding propane tanks flying through the air.

[SunEagle]

There you go. It all depends on one's experiences. The great thing is we all have choices. I don't worry about my Lithium batteries but I have survived a few surprises with propane that is heavier than air. I grew up with propane and our dog was almost asphyxiated from a propane leak in the kitchen of our home. I got rid of propane on my sail boat and went to compressed natural gas for safety. I have seen pictures of exploding propane tanks flying through the air.

LOL. And I have seen Tesla cars going up in flames so to each their own experiences

[Ampster]

LOL. And I have seen Tesla cars going up in flames so to each their own experiences

In photos or in real life? Per miles driven there are more gasoline car explosions than EV fires. The press loves to show Teslas going up in flames. I have actually seen gasoline cars and trucks on the Interstate in flames.

[SunEagle]

In photos or in real life? Per miles driven there are more gasoline car explosions than EV fires. The press loves to show Teslas going up in flames. I have actually seen gasoline cars and trucks on the Interstate in flames.

Yep. And I had a friend that owned a Pinto. Yet they were lucky it didn't blow up when he had a fender bender.

Look it doesn't really matter what type of vehicle someone uses. They all have had a bad experience at one time or the other. Even planes fall out of the sky.

I just trust a propane gen set more then a Li battery system. It doesn't mean I am right or wrong. It means I don't trust batteries for any long term backup.