NJ install - questions on size and micro-converter vs optimizer

[robstrash]

First thanks to everyone here as I've learned a lot over the last several weeks about the intricacies of solar. I'm in central NJ and looking at getting solar on the house. We did the NJ Clearn Energy program 5 years ago where they replaced AC, furnace and water heater with very efficient items and also re-insulated the attic and garage on our almost 20 year old home (just under 2,000 sq ft). Our usage was pretty low but we got a Tesla M3 a little over a year ago so usage is now up to 11,140 kWh for rolling 12 months. Our usage is somewhat sporadic as wife does pottery as a side job so we fire the electric kilns at non-set intervals so sometimes we have months at 1300 kWh but average around 950 kWh.

When I do the PVWatts for 1kW system (thanks JPM) it shows 1360 for my location so if I divide that by my 11,140 usage I get 8.2 kW. From my understanding this would be the correct size for my needs. However, most of the proposals I am getting are higher, like around 9 kW. Does this take into account some loss/degradation or are these just oversized ?

I also have 2 proposals that I like best as they come from highly rated installers. They both gave prices for Tier 1 (Jinko and Qcell) and high end Panasonic. The part that is confusing me most is that 1 is using Enphase micro-invertors while the other uses SolarEdge Optimizer and SolarEdge inverter. The prices are close so I'm trying to figure out what option would be best. The Panasonic model is VBHN325KA03. Here are details (all cash prices before tax credit):

Green Power Energy (GPE): 9.1 DC kW STC, First Year Output: 11,358 kWh 28 panels (see below), 28 SolarEdge P400 Optimizers, 1 SolarEdge SE7600H-US
QCell: 9.1 KW $26,390 ($2.90/watt)
Panasonic: 9.1 KW $28,210 ($3.10/watt)

Exact Solar: 8.775 kw DC STC, Annual usage: 11,140 kwh 27 panels (see below), 27 Enphase Micro-Inverters
Jinko Eagle 60M 8.775 kW $25,401.60 ($2.94/watt)
Panasonic: 8.775 kW $27,290.25 ($3.11/watt)

I read what I could with the micro-inverter vs optimizer but really not sure which one is best suited for my environment. Roof is South/southeast facing and no shade and I attached a picture from one proposal (both are similar except one has 6 panels on garage and other has 8). In the picture, south is down but not marked.

For the panels themselves, I know that the consensus here is that the Tier 1 panels are all pretty similar in performance and the Panasonic (or Sunpower/LG) are not usually worth the extra cost. Even though the Panasonic warranty is 25 years I realize that the chance of the panel failing is pretty low. However, wife feels better going with Panasonic and at only $1300 (after taxes) more I'm leaning towards that right now.

For what it's worth, I'll be getting roof replaced since it's 20 years old and would be replaced soon anyway. My last year cost of power was ~$1600 and estimate SREC at $180 (I know this is a guesstimate) so I'm looking at savings of about $1600 + $1800 = $3400 a year. With Panasonic panels cost after taxes is $19,100 - $19750 ($19,425 average) so looking at 5.7 years for return on investment which I think is pretty good.

I would appreciate everyone's thoughts on the Enphase micro-invertor vs SolarEdge optimizers plus any other comments you have. Plan would be to put optimizer in garage next to panel as no basement. We already have NEMA 14-50 for Tesla charging so don't need that option on the SolarEdge inverter if anyone is thinking that. Luckily we had existing wiring due to the kiln

Thanks in advance!

[ButchDeal]

When I do the PVWatts for 1kW system (thanks JPM) it shows 1360 for my location so if I divide that by my 11,140 usage I get 8.2 kW. From my understanding this would be the correct size for my needs. However, most of the proposals I am getting are higher, like around 9 kW. Does this take into account some loss/degradation or are these just oversized ?

It looks like you either have or will have a shadow soon from those trees. Also did you use true azimuth or magnetic azimuth? should be true.
Most homes shoot for 110% of annual for degradation, soiling and some possible growth in consumption.

I also have 2 proposals that I like best as they come from highly rated installers. They both gave prices for Tier 1 (Jinko and Qcell) and high end Panasonic. The part that is confusing me most is that 1 is using Enphase micro-invertors while the other uses SolarEdge Optimizer and SolarEdge inverter. The prices are close so I'm trying to figure out what option would be best. The Panasonic model is VBHN325KA03. Here are details (all cash prices before tax credit):

Green Power Energy (GPE): 9.1 DC kW STC, First Year Output: 11,358 kWh 28 panels (see below), 28 SolarEdge P400 Optimizers, 1 SolarEdge SE7600H-US
QCell: 9.1 KW $26,390 ($2.90/watt)
Panasonic: 9.1 KW $28,210 ($3.10/watt)

The SE7600H does have an optional EV charger you could get.

Exact Solar: 8.775 kw DC STC, Annual usage: 11,140 kwh 27 panels (see below), 27 Enphase Micro-Inverters
Jinko Eagle 60M 8.775 kW $25,401.60 ($2.94/watt)
Panasonic: 8.775 kW $27,290.25 ($3.11/watt)

Which micro inverter? some installers undersize the micros quite a bit

I read what I could with the micro-inverter vs optimizer but really not sure which one is best suited for my environment. Roof is South/southeast facing and no shade and I attached a picture from one proposal (both are similar except one has 6 panels on garage and other has 8). In the picture, south is down but not marked.

Looks like you have a big tree that will shade in winter and likely grow more. Also a few stand pipes and vents on the roof to shade a few modules.
micro inverters (not converters) and optimizers will perform similar if properly sized.

For the panels themselves, I know that the consensus here is that the Tier 1 panels are all pretty similar in performance and the Panasonic (or Sunpower/LG) are not usually worth the extra cost. Even though the Panasonic warranty is 25 years I realize that the chance of the panel failing is pretty low. However, wife feels better going with Panasonic and at only $1300 (after taxes) more I'm leaning towards that right now.

For what it's worth, I'll be getting roof replaced since it's 20 years old and would be replaced soon anyway. My last year cost of power was ~$1600 and estimate SREC at $180 (I know this is a guesstimate) so I'm looking at savings of about $1600 + $1800 = $3400 a year. With Panasonic panels cost after taxes is $19,100 - $19750 ($19,425 average) so looking at 5.7 years for return on investment which I think is pretty good.

I would appreciate everyone's thoughts on the Enphase micro-invertor vs SolarEdge optimizers plus any other comments you have. Plan would be to put optimizer in garage next to panel as no basement. We already have NEMA 14-50 for Tesla charging so don't need that option on the SolarEdge inverter if anyone is thinking that. Luckily we had existing wiring due to the kiln

The optimizers go under each PV module just like a micro inverter would but with the solaredge optmizer system you have a central (highly efficient) inverter that could go in your garage.

[Markyrocks69]

Honestly I'm not a huge fan of either setup but if I had to choose I'd go enphase. I've seen too many people complain about solaredge inverters failing prematurely . At least with enphase if a micro inverter craps out the whole system doesn't go down with it. If that solaredge takes a dump the system could be down for a few weeks or longer. 5.7 roi... fantastic. You seem obsessed with roi tho, might want to dail that back a notch lol

[ButchDeal]

I've seen too many people complain about solaredge inverters failing prematurely

there are a lot of people complaining about all systems. One of the two inverter companies has a larger share of the market than the other by quite a bit so 2nd hand reports of issues like this are going to lean towards the company with the larger number of installs.

In NJ OP is going to have to have some MLE so there are not many other options (notable would be ABB and SMA/Tigo).

[Markyrocks69]

there are a lot of people complaining about all systems. One of the two inverter companies has a larger share of the market than the other by quite a bit so 2nd hand reports of issues like this are going to lean towards the company with the larger number of installs.

In NJ OP is going to have to have some MLE so there are not many other options (notable would be ABB and SMA/Tigo).

Ya I hear ya but it just seems like every time I turn around someone is complaining about solaredge. I've seen at least a few people on this board trying to troubleshoot their inverters with limited success. I even saw a guy I barely follow on YouTube have his inverter fail. He runs the energy sovereignty project or something. I understand more customers equals more failures but I rarely see people complaining about any other brand in particular. I'm sure it happens. I know I saw quite a few complaining about sunpower microinverters but it looks like that was a bad batch.

But as i said b4 at least if a micro inverter goes down it doesn't cripple the whole system. I'm on the sma bandwagon. With the new rapid shutdown rules it kinda limits the options, I realize external rapid shutdown devices are available. The solar edge and enphase offer the complete package so I can see why they're popular. I just think that enphase is higher quality, solar edge inverters just look cheap and generic. The hdwave was supposed to make the inverters cheaper and more efficient but they used it as a selling point to raise the prices. If I had to choose I'd also pick enphase bc no inverter in the basement is just one less piece of equipment taking up space. That and solaredge customer service is notoriously bad. We've already had that conversation. I have no idea about enphase customer service but idk how it could be worse? To be worse theyd have to just keep you on hold for an hr and then hang up lol.

O and I almost forgot the enphase has a 25 year warranty, I'm not sure what the solar edge offers but I don't think it's that long.

[ButchDeal]

But as i said b4 at least if a micro inverter goes down it doesn't cripple the whole system. I'm on the sma bandwagon. With the new rapid shutdown rules it kinda limits the options, I realize external rapid shutdown devices are available. The solar edge and enphase offer the complete package so I can see why they're popular. I just think that enphase is higher quality, solar edge inverters just look cheap and generic. The hdwave was supposed to make the inverters cheaper and more efficient but they used it as a selling point to raise the prices. If I had to choose I'd also pick enphase bc no inverter in the basement is just one less piece of equipment taking up space. That and solaredge customer service is notoriously bad. We've already had that conversation. I have no idea about enphase customer service but idk how it could be worse? To be worse theyd have to just keep you on hold for an hr and then hang up lol.

O and I almost forgot the enphase has a 25 year warranty, I'm not sure what the solar edge offers but I don't think it's that long.

The HDwave inverters are cheaper than the older A series and the newer screenless hdwave inverters are a little cheaper still.
I love how you try and make a point about enphase being better and follow it up with how you don't know about solaredge...

solaredge has 25 year warranty in optimizers and they pay for labor for replacement.
on inverters they default to 12 year but have relatively cheap extension that customers can do or installer with just the serial number to 20 or 25 years.

one just looks cheap to you but you have no first hand experience with them.. hm. Ok why say anything then?

[robstrash]

The model is Enphase IQ 7+ ACM Microinverter. I didn't think about shade from the standpipes so thanks for that. I assume during the site inspection they'll take that into account when they make final layout. The SolarEdge does have optional 25 year warranty that the installer gets so it would be 25 year warranty on SolarEdge. I also updated the PVWatts and it's now 1356 instead of 1360 so negligible.

[Markyrocks69]

The HDwave inverters are cheaper than the older A series and the newer screenless hdwave inverters are a little cheaper still.
I love how you try and make a point about enphase being better and follow it up with how you don't know about solaredge...

solaredge has 25 year warranty in optimizers and they pay for labor for replacement.
on inverters they default to 12 year but have relatively cheap extension that customers can do or installer with just the serial number to 20 or 25 years.

one just looks cheap to you but you have no first hand experience with them.. hm. Ok why say anything then?

When I was shopping for inverters the difference between a standard model and the HD wave was significant. I cant even find a comparison atm bc it seems like the older models are no longer available so it's a moot point.

Ok so you proved my point thanks, enphase inverters have 25 year warranty compared to solaredge 12. Obviously extensions are available for a fee and goodluck getting someone on the phone to sell you one.

Why say anything? Bc that's just the kinda guy I am. Why are you such a solaredge fanboy? Are they paying you for your promotion? If not you're seriously wasting your effort. But no I don't have 1st hand experience bc I've seen enough that I won't be buying from them anytime soon so no, and probably no 1st hand experience in the future either.

[ButchDeal]

When I was shopping for inverters the difference between a standard model and the HD wave was significant. I cant even find a comparison atm bc it seems like the older models are no longer available so it's a moot point.

Ok so you proved my point thanks, enphase inverters have 25 year warranty compared to solaredge 12. Obviously extensions are available for a fee and goodluck getting someone on the phone to sell you one.

Why say anything? Bc that's just the kinda guy I am. Why are you such a solaredge fanboy? Are they paying you for your promotion? If not you're seriously wasting your effort. But no I don't have 1st hand experience bc I've seen enough that I won't be buying from them anytime soon so no, and probably no 1st hand experience in the future either.

Both the A series and H series were available from resellers for over a year and the HDwaves were a few hundred cheaper.

You can get the xtended warranty by outting in your serial number and credit card number on the web site, done in minutes. Even here you show your lack of experience but willingness to make up things ...

So you just talk about things you don't have experience with as if you do.
i have extensive experience with all kinds and models of inverters including enphase and as my signature specifies I even own an outback. My experience is first hand and with a lot of systems.

[ButchDeal]

The model is Enphase IQ 7+ ACM Microinverter. I didn't think about shade from the standpipes so thanks for that. I assume during the site inspection they'll take that into account when they make final layout. The SolarEdge does have optional 25 year warranty that the installer gets so it would be 25 year warranty on SolarEdge. I also updated the PVWatts and it's now 1356 instead of 1360 so negligible.

Many installers just toss in the extended warranty since it is so cheap.

the IQ7+ is good for jinko but should be IQ7X for panasonic since they are 96 cell.
Both systems will do well, I would recommend getting the optional consumption monitor which is available for both and lean a lot on which installer you are more comfortable as there doesn't seem tobe big issue in design.

[Markyrocks69]

https://mcelectrical.com.au/blog/solaredge-inverter-optimiser-review/

This is pretty interesting. Kinda backs up what I'm saying about the quality of solaredge products. Say I'm making stuff up whatever you want. This guy I'm assuming owns a solar installation company. Between 11/15 to 12/18 has installed 138 solar edge systems and has had 8 inverters fail.... that's 5.7% in 2 years. Who knows how many more of those will drop in the next 2 years. acceptable level of failures should be less than 1%. He also brings up having optimizers regularly fail and that a trick some installers do to avoid warranty claims is to not give customers full access to monitoring so that its significantly harder to determine if a optimizer has failed.

[ButchDeal]

https://mcelectrical.com.au/blog/sol...imiser-review/

This is pretty interesting. Kinda backs up what I'm saying about the quality of solaredge products. Say I'm making stuff up whatever you want. This guy I'm assuming owns a solar installation company. Between 11/15 to 12/18 has installed 138 solar edge systems and has had 8 inverters fail.... that's 5.7% in 2 years. Who knows how many more of those will drop in the next 2 years. acceptable level of failures should be less than 1%. He also brings up having optimizers regularly fail and that a trick some installers do to avoid warranty claims is to not give customers full access to monitoring so that its significantly harder to determine if a optimizer has failed.

More third party information and from a small time installer at that.
why do you bother posting anti solaredge ( or anything) when you have zero experience with it. I get you want to be helpful but you clearly have an opinion based on other peoples opinions and self declared zero experience...

there are a few people posting from this small time installers blog in australia that is old experiences and he is in legal issues with the company..

[Markyrocks69]

Here's like 10-15 other people saying the same stuff....

https://www.reddit.com/r/solar/comme...ed_experience/

Optimizer fails

https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/forum/solar-panels-for-home/solar-panels-for-your-home/380576-solaredge-system-keeps-failing-help-please

fail

https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/forum/solar-panels-for-home/solar-panels-for-your-home/382441-solaredge-optimizer-hell

"We are experiencing an incredibly high SE inverter failure rate. Systems under year old are experiencing a failure rate 3-5x of older systems"

https://www.reddit.com/r/solar/comments/cm4zl7/solaredge_inverters_failure_rate/

Seriously this dude must be paid promotion. Lol

[NJturtlePower]

First thanks to everyone here as I've learned a lot over the last several weeks about the intricacies of solar. I'm in central NJ and looking at getting solar on the house. We did the NJ Clearn Energy program 5 years ago where they replaced AC, furnace and water heater with very efficient items and also re-insulated the attic and garage on our almost 20 year old home (just under 2,000 sq ft). Our usage was pretty low but we got a Tesla M3 a little over a year ago so usage is now up to 11,140 kWh for rolling 12 months. Our usage is somewhat sporadic as wife does pottery as a side job so we fire the electric kilns at non-set intervals so sometimes we have months at 1300 kWh but average around 950 kWh.

When I do the PVWatts for 1kW system (thanks JPM) it shows 1360 for my location so if I divide that by my 11,140 usage I get 8.2 kW. From my understanding this would be the correct size for my needs. However, most of the proposals I am getting are higher, like around 9 kW. Does this take into account some loss/degradation or are these just oversized ?

I also have 2 proposals that I like best as they come from highly rated installers. They both gave prices for Tier 1 (Jinko and Qcell) and high end Panasonic. The part that is confusing me most is that 1 is using Enphase micro-invertors while the other uses SolarEdge Optimizer and SolarEdge inverter. The prices are close so I'm trying to figure out what option would be best. The Panasonic model is VBHN325KA03. Here are details (all cash prices before tax credit):

Green Power Energy (GPE): 9.1 DC kW STC, First Year Output: 11,358 kWh 28 panels (see below), 28 SolarEdge P400 Optimizers, 1 SolarEdge SE7600H-US
QCell: 9.1 KW $26,390 ($2.90/watt)
Panasonic: 9.1 KW $28,210 ($3.10/watt)

Exact Solar: 8.775 kw DC STC, Annual usage: 11,140 kwh 27 panels (see below), 27 Enphase Micro-Inverters
Jinko Eagle 60M 8.775 kW $25,401.60 ($2.94/watt)
Panasonic: 8.775 kW $27,290.25 ($3.11/watt)

I read what I could with the micro-inverter vs optimizer but really not sure which one is best suited for my environment. Roof is South/southeast facing and no shade and I attached a picture from one proposal (both are similar except one has 6 panels on garage and other has 8). In the picture, south is down but not marked.

For the panels themselves, I know that the consensus here is that the Tier 1 panels are all pretty similar in performance and the Panasonic (or Sunpower/LG) are not usually worth the extra cost. Even though the Panasonic warranty is 25 years I realize that the chance of the panel failing is pretty low. However, wife feels better going with Panasonic and at only $1300 (after taxes) more I'm leaning towards that right now.

For what it's worth, I'll be getting roof replaced since it's 20 years old and would be replaced soon anyway. My last year cost of power was ~$1600 and estimate SREC at $180 (I know this is a guesstimate) so I'm looking at savings of about $1600 + $1800 = $3400 a year. With Panasonic panels cost after taxes is $19,100 - $19750 ($19,425 average) so looking at 5.7 years for return on investment which I think is pretty good.

I would appreciate everyone's thoughts on the Enphase micro-invertor vs SolarEdge optimizers plus any other comments you have. Plan would be to put optimizer in garage next to panel as no basement. We already have NEMA 14-50 for Tesla charging so don't need that option on the SolarEdge inverter if anyone is thinking that. Luckily we had existing wiring due to the kiln

Thanks in advance!

A bit of cut and paste from our email exchange, but with some thoughts on pricing and equipment as well.

In my opinion an installers reputation, responsiveness and local presence is just as important if not more so than the actual solar hardware and warranty.

GPE has a strong presence in the local community here in Hunterdon County, NJ. They were just at our local 4-H fair and if you follow them on Facebook are active in NJ clean energy politics often meeting with state representatives trying to solidify our solar incentives and programs which is of course in their interest, but also the solar owners and soon-to-be owners.

I like to read their owner follow up case studies they post from time to time on FB as well. https://www.facebook.com/gpenergy/

As far as panel layout and system sizing what's the basic direction of your arrays?

If it's mostly southern, guessing south east by the image above, with good exposure maybe consider another 2 panels on that lower roof for added production and overhead for growth? Considering the strong NJ SREC market and current Federal credit the added upfront cost may be well worth it IMO.

My other suggestion is to push Tim a bit on yourcash pricing... with my financed system there was a 30+ cent gap between the QCells ($2.97 p/w) and Panasonic ($3.30) . Of course larger systems (mine 12.35kW) will have lower price per watt overall, but see if the 30 panel system helps you out in that regard.

Optimizers vs Micro Inverters....Electronics in general (solar or not) are more prone to failure in areas of temperature extremes and drastic fluctuations, FACT.

So for the same reason I chose (based on advice from here) to put my SE inverter in my semi-conditioned/protected basement vs an outside exposed wall is the same reason I would lean away from putting any more on the roof, especially the more complex/sensitive micro inverters. Warranties are comparable with both brands and dealers, GPE by default upgrades all SolarEdge components to 25-years and that's great and all, but in the end it's something you want to know is there but never actually use.

Bottom line, neither units (optimizers or micro-inverters) have been around or physically installed for 25-years in any case so it's a bit of faith we are going on anyways, same with the panels themselves, although they are even simpler and more robust in design by default.

Do the Exact Solar quotes include any squirrel/critter guards as GPE does by default? None of my other quotes did, but they offered them as an add on which would run $1000-$1500 depending on the system sizing per linear foot.

And about the reroof..I found the GPE sub (Costello Roofing) seamless, their communication was as good as GPE themselves and their pricing was great compared to some local quotes which made using them a no-brainer considering the availability to roll it all into the "site prep" of our solar loan.

[ButchDeal]

Here's like 10-15 other people saying the same stuff....

https://www.reddit.com/r/solar/comme...ed_experience/

Optimizer fails

https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/forum...ng-help-please

fail

https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/forum...optimizer-hell


"We are experiencing an incredibly high SE inverter failure rate. Systems under year old are experiencing a failure rate 3-5x of older systems"


https://www.reddit.com/r/solar/comme..._failure_rate/


Seriously this dude must be paid promotion. Lol

more third party comments going back a while at least one of which was clearly miss installed with the wrong equipment (installer made a huge mistake using LG 310 with p250 ).