Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Newbie looking for suggestions before responding to solar quotes received

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by scrambler View Post
    I did not mean they are more efficient than the Panasonic, but that they are better than the Hanwha G4 model for shade management

    Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post

    Why is that ?
    My understanding is that the cut cell panels are actually split into two Independent upper and lower module-halves connected in parallel, ensuring improved yield when modules are partly shaded.
    In a panel where you would have the equivalent of 3 strings with bypass diodes, you now have 6.
    Here is are some articles about it among several others.
    https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/...-cells-panels/
    https://news.energysage.com/half-cut...ells-overview/

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by sunpoweredev View Post
      That would be an automatic red flag for me. How does a solar installer not know about how SREC works? Perhaps by default they will pull a fast one on unsuspecting buyers to unknowingly sign away their SRECs to them, like Tesla tried on me. I read all the fine prints On a leased system or a PPA, yes the SRECs will go to the lessor or the company underwriting the PPA.
      Sorry, I wrote comment re; NJ Solar & SREC poorly. They replied with certainty that we would get SREC and in response to your finding in an agreement SREC going to installer was when he thought that might have been due to a lease situation.

      Didn't know about the 14 day rule SREC requirement and while seems like I might not be doing my homework, I tend to be just the opposite, over-researching. Why rebuilding post Sandy took so long - a zillion decisions to be researched (thankful for a our contractor's patience). Solar, though, has been a beating, not exactly sure why but I suspect because it seems to be numbers/ math based. Im persistant though.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by NJShore View Post
        Sorry, I wrote comment re; NJ Solar & SREC poorly. They replied with certainty that we would get SREC and in response to your finding in an agreement SREC going to installer was when he thought that might have been due to a lease situation.
        I see. Sorry I misinterpreted your original reply. But yeah with Tesla that was for a cash money purchase quote - $46K plus signing away my SRECs.

        Originally posted by NJShore View Post
        Didn't know about the 14 day rule SREC requirement and while seems like I might not be doing my homework, I tend to be just the opposite, over-researching. Why rebuilding post Sandy took so long - a zillion decisions to be researched (thankful for a our contractor's patience). Solar, though, has been a beating, not exactly sure why but I suspect because it seems to be numbers/ math based. Im persistant though.
        Not at all. Having gone through this myself recent, just trying to be helpful in saving you some time and pointing out some easy to miss items, such as that 14 day rule. It is definitely information overload when researching solar panels and installers.
        https://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?sid=69875

        Comment


        • #19
          Welcome @NJShore!

          I'm still getting caught up on the thread. But we've developed quite a sizable NJ contingent here on the board these days. I think there are 5 or 6 of us now. Most of which have systems from GPE.

          I just wanted to chime in re: SREC's. It's really very simple. As long as you own your PV system -- e.g. paid with cash, solar loan, HELOC, etc. the SREC's are yours. You get one SREC for each MWh of production your PV system makes. My 12.2kW system makes 11-12 per year. There is a registration process and some paperwork to getting signed up. But GPE (and likely other reputable NJ installers) handles all of this for you.

          The only time you would not be eligible to earn SREC's would be if you were going to lease your system or enter into a power purchase agreement with SunRun, Tesla, NRG, etc. In which case we would string you up at high noon and let the vultures pick at you (-: Seriously, don't lease.

          But from what you've told us so far, it looks like you are planning to purchase your system which is the right way to go. This way you also get the 30% federal tax credit as long as your system is installed and commissioned this year. A little less if it spills over into 2020.

          Also note, since your system will be installed after Q4 2018, you are only entitled to 10yrs of SREC's not 15yrs like macaddict and I. SREC's are traded on a renewable energy market, and their prices fluctuate and ARE NOT GUARANTEED. But, so far, I've been averaging ~$200-220 per SREC.

          Who is your PoCo? JCP&L or PG&E? How many MWh does your home use per year? FYI $2.91 per W for Panasonic is a Fantastic price. The new Hawha DUO's split the panels into halves so may be more efficient in cases where half (top half or bottom half if portrait) is shaded.

          But, I would expect you are looking at a Solar Edge (or perhaps Enphase) solution anyway -- both of which have panel level optimizers -- so i doubt the Hanwha would help much. Panasonic is a fantastic panel brand. But you pay for the higher efficiency (more Watts with fewer panels). There are lots of other very good panel MFG -- LG, Hawha, Trina, Jinko, etc.

          -Jonathan

          Comment


          • #20
            >> What swayed me was 1) Panasonic being one of the very few rated as "premium PLUS" on EnergySage


            I'll slap together some cells and plexi and sell them to you as Super Premium PLUS" with a 20 year warranty backed by a 30 minute old LLC.

            Seriously folks, these are SALESMEN. they will say anything for the extra $2K from your pocket to theirs.
            Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
            || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
            || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

            solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
            gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post
              >> What swayed me was 1) Panasonic being one of the very few rated as "premium PLUS" on EnergySage


              I'll slap together some cells and plexi and sell them to you as Super Premium PLUS" with a 20 year warranty backed by a 30 minute old LLC.

              Seriously folks, these are SALESMEN. they will say anything for the extra $2K from your pocket to theirs.
              As a former commission sales rep who took a pay cut to change professions to engineering, I could not agree more with your opinion. But, folks see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear. Every peddler's stock in trade. That and customer ignorance. Believe it. If folks only knew.

              Comment


              • #22
                Gents, it was somewhat of a joke about the premium plus rating. That did not come into play when I decided to go with the Panasonics. Believe me, I know.

                These are the quotes I received, from somewhat questionable installers: $3.30/watt for Panasonic 325watt panels, $3.10/watt for LG 390watt panels, $2.60/watt for Silfab 300 panels, $2.89/watt for LG 315 watt panels. And then the quote I received from the installer I chose, which is $2.91/watt for Panasonic 330watt panels. Never mind what you guys have against "premium plus" panels. A $2.91 per watt for Panasonic 330w panels, from the most reputable installer, why not?
                https://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?sid=69875

                Comment


                • #23
                  [QUOTE=sunpoweredev;n399015] Never mind what you guys have against "premium plus" panels. A $2.91 per watt for Panasonic 330w panels, from the most reputable installer, why not?/QUOTE]

                  Since you ask: Aside from the ill/non defined term "premium plus", there's nothing wrong with $2.91/STC W, and it may indeed be the best choice, but not necessarily the best possible choice if a longer and wider view is taken. To some, and way before skipping logic and buying on initial price/ STC W alone, which is always a fool's errand, that initial price needs to be compared to and perhaps considered after, and perhaps in some loose order:

                  1.) The long term cost of meeting an electrical load by other means including not using the power in the first place by simply turning stuff off and/or more conservation measures.
                  2.) Depending on the LCOE or some other considered method, maybe not doing PV at all.
                  3.) Cost effectiveness of any PV be damned, if PV is the choice, the lowest long term cost of meeting an electrical load by careful array sizing and design. That's necessary because the lowest long term cost of power is often a mix of grid power and on site generation, with the usual on site means of generation being PV.
                  4.) Beyond some basic panel quality level, since panel or array annual output and panel reliability is pretty much independent of panel mfg., at least at this time, a look at all quality panels and an educated, informed and logical choice of panel beyond the advert. and peddler hype and B.S. may be helpful.

                  That $2.91/STC W may be the best in the end choice, but if the lowest long term cost of meeting and electrical load is one goal, without cold, hard comparisons of the options available, the lowest long term cost of meeting the goal lowest cost of meeting an electrical load is unknown.

                  Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Hey JSchnee21 - Was relief on NJTurtle thread to learn of others NJers with experience here as well as so many non-NJ knowledgeable folks

                    Originally posted by JSchnee21 View Post
                    But from what you've told us so far, it looks like you are planning to purchase your system which is the right way to go. This way you also get the 30% federal tax credit as long as your system is installed and commissioned this year. A little less if it spills over into 2020.
                    Dont have to sell me, would never lease... anything. So yes paying in full. Does that mean we are not at risk of an installer getting rights to claim SRECs thru a stipulation in an agreement / contract?
                    Def looking to do install as soon as poss... soon as feel comfortable making good choice.

                    Believe youve written you submit SRECs yourself - did that influence your choice of equipment? Don't want to look into that yet while still trying to get just get started, understanding process of picking installer / equipment. J.P.M.'s list is much appreciated but got stuck at the beginning with questions and will be inquiring on them.

                    Originally posted by JSchnee21 View Post
                    Who is your PoCo? JCP&L or PG&E? How many MWh does your home use per year?
                    Reason for my delayed response - this morn found that my electric spreadsheet was off and took some time to discover why but is now corrected. With JCP&L and 16,367 KWh used over last 12 months.

                    Originally posted by JSchnee21 View Post
                    But, I would expect you are looking at a Solar Edge (or perhaps Enphase) solution anyway
                    Yes all quotes include one or the other of these two. All were different panels but per our request from NJSolar, now have a 2nd quote on Panasonic along with GPE Panasonic quote although they differ on panel quantity & pricing.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post
                      1.) Buy or download a copy of "Solar Power Your Home for Dummies". A good primer.
                      2.) Determine your annual load and how much of it you want to offset with PV.
                      Found the book. Re: annual load, does this mean KWhs used for 12 mths? Know for last 12, we've used 16,367 KWh per our bills.
                      Also amount to offset with PV - don't know what's possible, realistic or even advisable. Definitely want to go for as much as possible though.
                      Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post
                      3.) At the same time as # 2, get familiar with how and how much you are charged for electricity as well as how the SREC market works in NJ.
                      Is this what you mean on being charged? Ive kept spreadsheet on electric bill breakdowns for a year now and for longer have shopped elec suppliers, contracting for best rates. On May 1st began 18-mths at .0899 KWh (Constellation) after ending 12-mth at .095 (Clearview). Also know breakdown of total elec bills (below) for last 12 months..
                      LAST 12 MONTHS
                      $2,211.06 Total Bill
                      $1,390.83 Generation Only (thru non-JCP&L suppliers, based on KWh used)
                      $ 772.50 Delivery (thru JCP&L, based on KWh used)
                      $ 33.73 Customer Fees (pretty consistant monthly)

                      Ive learned generally how NJ SREC work.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by NJShore View Post
                        Found the book. Re: annual load, does this mean KWhs used for 12 mths? Know for last 12, we've used 16,367 KWh per our bills.
                        Also amount to offset with PV - don't know what's possible, realistic or even advisable. Definitely want to go for as much as possible though.
                        Is this what you mean on being charged? Ive kept spreadsheet on electric bill breakdowns for a year now and for longer have shopped elec suppliers, contracting for best rates. On May 1st began 18-mths at .0899 KWh (Constellation) after ending 12-mth at .095 (Clearview). Also know breakdown of total elec bills (below) for last 12 months..
                        LAST 12 MONTHS
                        $2,211.06 Total Bill
                        $1,390.83 Generation Only (thru non-JCP&L suppliers, based on KWh used)
                        $ 772.50 Delivery (thru JCP&L, based on KWh used)
                        $ 33.73 Customer Fees (pretty consistant monthly)


                        Ive learned generally how NJ SREC work.
                        On annual load, the answer to your question is pretty much yes. Annual load is the amount of electrical energy in kilowatt-hours (kWh) your residence consumed over any consecutive 365 day period. Usually that's from some landmark day like Jan. 1, or the trueup day for NEM, but it really is usage for any continuous 365 day period. Same for annual generation BTW. Example: My array went live at solar noon, 10/17/2013. I have a running total of all prior 365 day period usage since 10/17/2014. To be clear, it's the total usage, not usage after any solar contribution. Even if you are an excess generator, you will still have annual (or any other period) usage.

                        I don't know what you mean by "Definitely want to go for as much as possible though".
                        Offset as much as or more than annual use ?
                        Have no electric bill ?
                        Supply a conservation minimized load so that the mix of PV supplied and grid supplied electricity has the lowest life cycle cost ?

                        (hint: if your after the most long term cost effective way to supply the electrical load of a residence, the last one will be it).

                        On amount to offset w/ PV: The book will help inform you. As a general starting point on solar economics, solar processes are generally characterized by high first cost and, not considering any debt service required from loans to obtain the system, generally low operating costs. Grid supplied power has essentially zero initial cost but higher recurring costs (the electric bills). Thus, the basic economic analysis is one of comparing an initial known investment (in solar equipment) with estimated future operating costs.

                        Most solar PV energy systems will require conventional (grid) backup to have any hope of being as cost effective as having no PV system at all. So, the total energy supply to a residence includes both solar and grid power with annual electrical loads met by a combination of the two.

                        The objective or goal of the economic analysis - assuming one goal of PV is to have lower long term electric bills - can be viewed as the determination of the least cost method of meeting the energy need considering both the solar and the non solar (grid ) contributions over the expected (and probably estimated) life of the equipment, or however long you expect to own it. The analysis comes down to determining the size of the solar energy system that gives the lowest long term cost combination of solar generated electricity and grid supplied electricity - the "sweet spot".

                        Undersize the PV system and the recurring cost (the bills for grid supplied power) of meeting the residential load goes up and, for many but not all residential tariffs, the long term cost effectiveness of the PV investment may go up as well, but perhaps/probably not enough to offset the NPV of the increase in the electric bills from the POCO.

                        Oversize the PV system and the recurring costs of grid electricity will go down, but as system size increases, at some point the POCO electric bill decrease will stop dropping fast enough to offset the cost ineffectiveness of the oversizing.

                        Your situation is a bit more involved in that you will have SREC revenue, and it's impact and indeed availability is probably uncertain for the future. However, most every economic analysis method that deals with what's generally called life cycle costing - net present value, or discounted cash flows or return on investment, or other methods such as comparison of alternatives analysis, or levelized cost of energy, or others, all make assumptions about the future in terms of discount rates, inflation, tax implications, ROI of alternative investments and as many other inputs as the user deems important.

                        The future will always be a crap shoot. Fortune favors the bold, and slaughters the foolish and ignorant. Assumptions based on informed expectations and education along with playing heads' up ball often have a higher probability of producing better outcomes than listening to bloviators or those with skin in the game waiting to separate the solar ignorant from their assets. Get your own information from sources you know and trust. Avoid hype and B.S. The more you learn, the better you'll be at differentiating the two.

                        There is a well developed body of economic analysis of solar energy equipment that's available to those willing to look, read and learn, and you won't find much of it on YouTube.

                        Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          NJShore Nice to welcome yet another Jersey member!

                          Glad my thread was of some help to you in the early phase of your solar journey....I'll be be following along!
                          12.35 kW - https://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?sid=67749

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by NJShore View Post
                            Dont have to sell me, would never lease... anything. So yes paying in full. Does that mean we are not at risk of an installer getting rights to claim SRECs thru a stipulation in an agreement / contract?
                            Def looking to do install as soon as poss... soon as feel comfortable making good choice.
                            I've only ever seen two formal install/design agreement, one from Tesla and the other GPE. In Tesla's case, all it was was a single check box with small print that was checked by default saying that SRECs are assigned to Tesla. This was a outright purchase agreement to which I was quoted $46k, with the aforementioned box checked. I really don't believe that is the norm, with the installer trying to pull one on unsuspecting customers. But Tesla did, so I made it question #1 on my list when I talk to an installer. Just make sure in your agreement that the installer will register SREC in your name.
                            https://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?sid=69875

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Hi sunpowered

                              Wow! Thanks for sharing. Never heard of that before. I'm not sure that Tesla could collect the SREC's on a system they didn't own. That would be like me continuing to collect SREC's on a home I sold to someone else.

                              But it could very well be deceptive or just sloppy / ignorant marketing practices -- I'm not sure how many folks have historically purchased Tesla solar solution.

                              OR, it's possible what it might have been trying to say is that Tesla would manage the submission of PV production data on your behalf -- for which the would take a commission. When I got my system from GPE, GPE offered to manage my SREC's for me at something like $10 commission per SREC. I decided just to do it myself.

                              Not sure. But good catch either way.

                              -Jonathan

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                [QUOTE=J.P.M.;n399019]
                                Originally posted by sunpoweredev View Post
                                Never mind what you guys have against "premium plus" panels. A $2.91 per watt for Panasonic 330w panels, from the most reputable installer, why not?/QUOTE]

                                Since you ask: Aside from the ill/non defined term "premium plus", there's nothing wrong with $2.91/STC W, and it may indeed be the best choice, but not necessarily the best possible choice if a longer and wider view is taken. To some, and way before skipping logic and buying on initial price/ STC W alone, which is always a fool's errand, that initial price needs to be compared to and perhaps considered after, and perhaps in some loose order:

                                1.) The long term cost of meeting an electrical load by other means including not using the power in the first place by simply turning stuff off and/or more conservation measures.
                                2.) Depending on the LCOE or some other considered method, maybe not doing PV at all.
                                3.) Cost effectiveness of any PV be damned, if PV is the choice, the lowest long term cost of meeting an electrical load by careful array sizing and design. That's necessary because the lowest long term cost of power is often a mix of grid power and on site generation, with the usual on site means of generation being PV.
                                4.) Beyond some basic panel quality level, since panel or array annual output and panel reliability is pretty much independent of panel mfg., at least at this time, a look at all quality panels and an educated, informed and logical choice of panel beyond the advert. and peddler hype and B.S. may be helpful.

                                That $2.91/STC W may be the best in the end choice, but if the lowest long term cost of meeting and electrical load is one goal, without cold, hard comparisons of the options available, the lowest long term cost of meeting the goal lowest cost of meeting an electrical load is unknown.

                                Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.
                                1) I looked up my electric bill over the past 3 years while still in my research phasea. It is strangely consistent, almost like clockwork the month to month consumptioin pattern. So as far as lowering my consumption, I'm afraid there's not much that can be done, at least not without giving up some of the "luxuries" such as two 24/7 computers running my cable DVR.
                                2) Based on the estimated ROI of 5-6 years, I definitely want to have the PV system. I know that that ROI timeframe takes SRECs into account and that SREC value can and does fluctuate.
                                3) Most of the system design proposals I received claims 100% offset. On my chosen design, I entered all parameters into PVWatts as accurately as I know how, and the estimated output is actually higher than what my installer's estimate is. Nothing is guaranteed especially how much sunshine one gets, nevertheless I did what I could to verify.
                                4) Panasonic is one of the most highly regarded manufacturer, and since the price is right compared to other proposals I received with cheaper panels, it's a win/win. Had the cost difference been something like 20%, yes I likely would've picked another panel.

                                In the end, nothing is guaranteed, but I did my due diligence and made what I believe to be the best choice.
                                https://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?sid=69875

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X