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  • J.P.M.
    replied
    Originally posted by njdealguy View Post


    Might be time consuming and not that easy to dig through my POCO's terms and conditions fine print to figure out exactly how they handle this situation (And even some of their customer service reps may be clueless on this if I try to call them).

    But my guess is what your saying makes sense and probably how majority of POCO's in this country would handle this situation where instead of refunding estimated power usage prepaid at retail rates they will instead adjust the banked usage in a later month on an actual meter read to be reimbursed at trueup at wholesale. For this I think its prudent to check each month's statement if usage was estimated and avoid paying for any estimated usage that is false. I did call yesterday to inform my current meter reading and my POCO PSE&G adjusted the month's bill with the corrected Net Metered balance.
    I appreciate the time and effort required. Being retired, I've got more time than money and more money than brains to waste all 3 on fiddling w/ POCO billing ins/outs. However, I would certainly encourage you or anyone to get familiar w/their POCO's published billing policies and equally importantly, how those stated policies may actually work in ways that may be different than how any user may interpret them. Seems better than bitching in the dark about it anyway.

    As for the accuracy of what I write being correct: I deem it to be so and present my opinions in good faith based on what I think I might know about my POCO's billing and tariff policies and reading my bills. But to reiterate, what I've written about the subject applies to what I believe my POCO's billing would do based on what I think I may know of such billing practices and as allowed by the CA PUC. The caveat there is that since I nor anyone I know on NEM with SDG & E has received a bill based on estimated usage, I may be wrong in what I write, but I've not seen, nor am I aware of any mechanism to change what I think would be the case if a bill came to me based on estimated rather than actual usage.

    All of that aside, I'm pretty much completely ignorant of your POCO's billing policies and practices, so take all of what I write as perhaps interesting conversation and little else.

    Not backing away from my opinion or what I wrote - just trying to put some perspective on it.

    Leave a comment:


  • njdealguy
    replied
    Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post

    Understood.

    If my bills were estimated, which I reiterate they are not, and if my understanding of how my POCO bills me is correct, if such estimates for any billing period were for higher usage than actually incurred for those billing periods, I'd guess (because I don't get estimated bills and so have no smoking gun to confirm my thinking) the actual and probably correct excess system production would show at trueup, but some of it would have already been paid for at retail rates.

    If I used, say, 1,000 kWh for a billing period, but got an estimated bill for, say, 1,100 kWh, while having actual generation for that period of, say, 1,200 kWh for that period, I'd be billed for 100 extra kWh at retail rates for that (1,100 - 1,000) kWh, with 100 kWh called excess generation instead of 200 kWh of excess generation that would have showed if actual meter readings had been used.

    Then, at trueup, assuming actual readings are used at that time, the total year's actual vs. estimated usage would be correct, and that 100 lost kWh (200 kWh-100 kWh) of excess generation would already have been (pre)paid for at retail rates and now (at trueup) reimbursed at wholesale rates.The POCO will pocket the difference between retail and wholesale for those 100 kWh. That amount would come from my pocket.

    I wouldn't be surprised if your POCO has a way to account for this type of situation - it's too easy to spot with a bit of knowledge of billing policies - but I'd also not be surprised if they make less than no effort to make it easy to find and understand how it works. Having informed customers is never in a seller's best interests.

    Might be time consuming and not that easy to dig through my POCO's terms and conditions fine print to figure out exactly how they handle this situation (And even some of their customer service reps may be clueless on this if I try to call them).

    But my guess is what your saying makes sense and probably how majority of POCO's in this country would handle this situation where instead of refunding estimated power usage prepaid at retail rates they will instead adjust the banked usage in a later month on an actual meter read to be reimbursed at trueup at wholesale. For this I think its prudent to check each month's statement if usage was estimated and avoid paying for any estimated usage that is false. I did call yesterday to inform my current meter reading and my POCO PSE&G adjusted the month's bill with the corrected Net Metered balance.

    Leave a comment:


  • J.P.M.
    replied
    Originally posted by sunpoweredev View Post
    Totally hadn't thought of it that way. Such a simple way to screw people over lol. I'd like to believe they weren't out to get me that way, given the crazy times we're in, which those 2 back to back estimated reads were in the middle of.

    The actual anniversary for my system is the end of July for true up. NJ law allows a one time reset which I did and was reset to March, though I've never received any official confirmation of the change, other than a .pdf file a rep typed up when I complained the second time. If my current 1.68MWh bank (expected to be ~2.5MWh in the bill coming in a few days) goes poof, I will know then that they're out to get me.
    Understood.

    If my bills were estimated, which I reiterate they are not, and if my understanding of how my POCO bills me is correct, if such estimates for any billing period were for higher usage than actually incurred for those billing periods, I'd guess (because I don't get estimated bills and so have no smoking gun to confirm my thinking) the actual and probably correct excess system production would show at trueup, but some of it would have already been paid for at retail rates.

    If I used, say, 1,000 kWh for a billing period, but got an estimated bill for, say, 1,100 kWh, while having actual generation for that period of, say, 1,200 kWh for that period, I'd be billed for 100 extra kWh at retail rates for that (1,100 - 1,000) kWh, with 100 kWh called excess generation instead of 200 kWh of excess generation that would have showed if actual meter readings had been used.

    Then, at trueup, assuming actual readings are used at that time, the total year's actual vs. estimated usage would be correct, and that 100 lost kWh (200 kWh-100 kWh) of excess generation would already have been (pre)paid for at retail rates and now (at trueup) reimbursed at wholesale rates.The POCO will pocket the difference between retail and wholesale for those 100 kWh. That amount would come from my pocket.

    I wouldn't be surprised if your POCO has a way to account for this type of situation - it's too easy to spot with a bit of knowledge of billing policies - but I'd also not be surprised if they make less than no effort to make it easy to find and understand how it works. Having informed customers is never in a seller's best interests.

    Leave a comment:


  • sunpoweredev
    replied
    Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post

    I'd check billing policy and see how you're charged.

    I don't get estimated bills, but if I did, the way my monthly billing policies for usage works, overestimating meter readings (which could imply underestimating production) would mean I'd get billed at retail rates for months when estimates of meter readings were inflated - sort of like the POCO getting around net metering by "precharging" for power at retail rates, pocketing the money and paying for it out at wholesale rates when trueup or an actual meter reading take place.

    Your POCO metering/billing policies may be and probably are different.
    Totally hadn't thought of it that way. Such a simple way to screw people over lol. I'd like to believe they weren't out to get me that way, given the crazy times we're in, which those 2 back to back estimated reads were in the middle of.

    The actual anniversary for my system is the end of July for true up. NJ law allows a one time reset which I did and was reset to March, though I've never received any official confirmation of the change, other than a .pdf file a rep typed up when I complained the second time. If my current 1.68MWh bank (expected to be ~2.5MWh in the bill coming in a few days) goes poof, I will know then that they're out to get me.

    Leave a comment:


  • SunEagle
    replied
    Originally posted by njdealguy View Post

    Wow if this is true will need to start staying on top of this and preemptively send photos of my own meter reading to the POCO on or just before the listed meter reading date.

    Sounds like something POCOs would love to get away with if they could, somehow collecting as much as possible at retail rates for "mistake" estimates and then reimbursing at wholesale rates later on, this would be financially detrimental to owning solar if they would keep doing this and got away with it!
    I remember getting an "estimated" bill which was listed that way. My POCO for some reason had not been able to read my meter so they submitted one that was similar to the month for the year before. The good news is that they did read my meter the next month and the cost ended up being lower than usual because the estimate on the previous bill was over what I had really used.

    Hopefully your POCO will end up balancing out the bills so all is balanced in the end.

    Leave a comment:


  • J.P.M.
    replied
    Originally posted by njdealguy View Post

    Wow if this is true will need to start staying on top of this and preemptively send photos of my own meter reading to the POCO on or just before the listed meter reading date.

    Sounds like something POCOs would love to get away with if they could, somehow collecting as much as possible at retail rates for "mistake" estimates and then reimbursing at wholesale rates later on, this would be financially detrimental to owning solar if they would keep doing this and got away with it!
    I don't know if it's true for your POCO or not.

    I'm pretty familiar w/my POCO's billing practices, and for this conversation how my POCO's billing policies and procedures COULD work to their advantage IF they estimated billing period usage.
    My POCO does not estimate my bills.

    I'm not saying your POCO is/is not playing games simply because I'm completely ignorant of what your POCO's billing policies and procedures are.

    I just think cynically and have found I'm rarely disappointed.

    Leave a comment:


  • njdealguy
    replied
    Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post

    I'd check billing policy and see how you're charged.

    I don't get estimated bills, but if I did, the way my monthly billing policies for usage works, overestimating meter readings (which could imply underestimating production) would mean I'd get billed at retail rates for months when estimates of meter readings were inflated - sort of like the POCO getting around net metering by "precharging" for power at retail rates, pocketing the money and paying for it out at wholesale rates when trueup or an actual meter reading take place.

    Your POCO metering/billing policies may be and probably are different.
    Wow if this is true will need to start staying on top of this and preemptively send photos of my own meter reading to the POCO on or just before the listed meter reading date.

    Sounds like something POCOs would love to get away with if they could, somehow collecting as much as possible at retail rates for "mistake" estimates and then reimbursing at wholesale rates later on, this would be financially detrimental to owning solar if they would keep doing this and got away with it!

    Leave a comment:


  • J.P.M.
    replied
    Originally posted by sunpoweredev View Post
    Two months in a row they did the estimate on me. The two months combined I should've had ~1.5MWh banked, but instead I was billed like 200kWh combined. Not sure if it had to do with my email complaining to JCP&L, but they did and actual read last month and I was credited 1.68MWh in the bank.
    I'd check billing policy and see how you're charged.

    I don't get estimated bills, but if I did, the way my monthly billing policies for usage works, overestimating meter readings (which could imply underestimating production) would mean I'd get billed at retail rates for months when estimates of meter readings were inflated - sort of like the POCO getting around net metering by "precharging" for power at retail rates, pocketing the money and paying for it out at wholesale rates when trueup or an actual meter reading take place.

    Your POCO metering/billing policies may be and probably are different.

    Leave a comment:


  • sunpoweredev
    replied
    Two months in a row they did the estimate on me. The two months combined I should've had ~1.5MWh banked, but instead I was billed like 200kWh combined. Not sure if it had to do with my email complaining to JCP&L, but they did and actual read last month and I was credited 1.68MWh in the bank.

    Leave a comment:


  • NJturtlePower
    replied
    Originally posted by njdealguy View Post
    Received a bill from PSE&G today and surprisingly looks like they are using "estimated " meter readings rather than actual one to somehow charge me for 350 kwh of electricity when in reality I have exported 600 kwh of electricity more than consumption! Not sure they'll listen when I call their customer service. Seems absurd after not at all expecting to pay for electricity again!
    Estimated readings don't seem to be all that uncommon with my provider JCP&L.

    In my past 10-months with solar installed I've had 3 estimated readings, usually due to weather. As far as I know my meter is read by drive-by, and I guess they just skip routes in poor weather.

    They do seem to always estimate solar production VERY low when they do estimate though...seen them estimate 150 kWh surplus when it was closer to 600.

    Leave a comment:


  • SunEagle
    replied
    Originally posted by njdealguy View Post
    Received a bill from PSE&G today and surprisingly looks like they are using "estimated " meter readings rather than actual one to somehow charge me for 350 kwh of electricity when in reality I have exported 600 kwh of electricity more than consumption! Not sure they'll listen when I call their customer service. Seems absurd after not at all expecting to pay for electricity again!
    Usually when a POCO gives you an estimated bill it is because they can't or won't come out to read your meter. That is kind of old school since most POCO's not have smart meters that will provide the front office with the data needed for billing or be remotely read from a truck on the street.

    Leave a comment:


  • njdealguy
    replied
    Received a bill from PSE&G today and surprisingly looks like they are using "estimated " meter readings rather than actual one to somehow charge me for 350 kwh of electricity when in reality I have exported 600 kwh of electricity more than consumption! Not sure they'll listen when I call their customer service. Seems absurd after not at all expecting to pay for electricity again!

    Leave a comment:


  • SunEagle
    replied
    Originally posted by NJturtlePower View Post

    This was a show in northern NJ in the town of Wayne by a car club called Forged Society. Well organized and supported by local law enforcement which was nice to see. We actually overfilled the original meet lot location and some business owners complained due to no spots available for their shoppers. The LEO's came on their loudspeakers not to kick us out, but rather to offer an alternate lot with more space, so we moved down the road. If you are on Facebook search "Tesla Model 3 New Jersey" or "Tesla Club of NY/NJ" those are two of about 4 local Tesla groups I'm part of that usually plan meets, or cars and coffee type events around the state.

    Thanks for the complement! I really do love the Silver Metallic and kinda enjoy the unique color since it was discontinued fairly early on. So many say it shows the cars lines the best, and I would have to be biased and agree.

    The wheels are Stance SF07's (Gunmetal) in a like OEM fitment of 19X8.5 +35...they are rotary forged, built to OEM hub size so no center rings needed and they actually weigh a few pounds LESS than the OEM "Sport" 19's and about the same as the Aero's from Tesla which are now my dedicated winter set. I slightly over sized the tires at 245/40/19 since my car is RWD and I was going to be running true summer rubber I wanted a bit extra contact patch for grip. They are General GMAX RS tires which are very competitive compared to the Michelin PS4's that Tesla uses on the Performance cars. They also make a similar All-Season option, the GMAX AS-05... the $50 extra foam in the OEM tires is hardly worth anyone's money IMO.

    EVERYTHING is illegal in NJ, but we are just living our best Tesla life! Yes, front plate is required, but it lives in my frunk attached to a bracket as my excuse if stopped. We joke with the one guy who actually shows up with one on the red 3. Going on 2-years and no funny looks or stops yet, but being close to the PA boarder might help since they only need a rear plate.

    My front windows are also tinted at 40% ( <70% TLV is NJ legal on the fronts) with Llumar Pinnacle ceramic film as is the rest of the car including over the factory tinted sunroof glass.

    No inspection sticker is a fun perk since NJ now only tests vehicles for emission controls us EV's get a pass. Other states like NY still require an annual money grab "Safety Inspection".
    I use to live in NJ for about 35 years and actually worked in Wayne for a while. Sad to hear about the existing restrictions concerning EV's.

    Leave a comment:


  • NJturtlePower
    replied
    Originally posted by sunpoweredev View Post

    Very cool. Where was the show at? I have not once seen any Model 3s with any mods on the road. The silver one in that photo looks the best, very subtle. Love the wheels! My only "mod" is adding some aftermarket mud guards. I do have a set of snow tires on aftermarket wheels. I actually like those aftermarket wheels as they very subtly stick out more than the stock 18"s. Did to add spacers to your car? I've been very tempted to put spacers on my car with the stock 18s but a bit worried it may mess with the ride. My #1 complain on the car as far as looks is the wheels look a bit too set inwards. I'm seriously considering putting the auto trunk opener to my car.

    Is it legal in NJ to not have front license plate? Do love that no ugly inspection sticker is required on EVs though.
    This was a show in northern NJ in the town of Wayne by a car club called Forged Society. Well organized and supported by local law enforcement which was nice to see. We actually overfilled the original meet lot location and some business owners complained due to no spots available for their shoppers. The LEO's came on their loudspeakers not to kick us out, but rather to offer an alternate lot with more space, so we moved down the road. If you are on Facebook search "Tesla Model 3 New Jersey" or "Tesla Club of NY/NJ" those are two of about 4 local Tesla groups I'm part of that usually plan meets, or cars and coffee type events around the state.

    Thanks for the complement! I really do love the Silver Metallic and kinda enjoy the unique color since it was discontinued fairly early on. So many say it shows the cars lines the best, and I would have to be biased and agree.

    The wheels are Stance SF07's (Gunmetal) in a like OEM fitment of 19X8.5 +35...they are rotary forged, built to OEM hub size so no center rings needed and they actually weigh a few pounds LESS than the OEM "Sport" 19's and about the same as the Aero's from Tesla which are now my dedicated winter set. I slightly over sized the tires at 245/40/19 since my car is RWD and I was going to be running true summer rubber I wanted a bit extra contact patch for grip. They are General GMAX RS tires which are very competitive compared to the Michelin PS4's that Tesla uses on the Performance cars. They also make a similar All-Season option, the GMAX AS-05... the $50 extra foam in the OEM tires is hardly worth anyone's money IMO.

    EVERYTHING is illegal in NJ, but we are just living our best Tesla life! Yes, front plate is required, but it lives in my frunk attached to a bracket as my excuse if stopped. We joke with the one guy who actually shows up with one on the red 3. Going on 2-years and no funny looks or stops yet, but being close to the PA boarder might help since they only need a rear plate.

    My front windows are also tinted at 40% ( <70% TLV is NJ legal on the fronts) with Llumar Pinnacle ceramic film as is the rest of the car including over the factory tinted sunroof glass.

    No inspection sticker is a fun perk since NJ now only tests vehicles for emission controls us EV's get a pass. Other states like NY still require an annual money grab "Safety Inspection".
    Last edited by NJturtlePower; 06-16-2020, 11:23 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • SunEagle
    replied
    Originally posted by sunpoweredev View Post

    Very cool. Where was the show at? I have not once seen any Model 3s with any mods on the road. The silver one in that photo looks the best, very subtle. Love the wheels! My only "mod" is adding some aftermarket mud guards. I do have a set of snow tires on aftermarket wheels. I actually like those aftermarket wheels as they very subtly stick out more than the stock 18"s. Did to add spacers to your car? I've been very tempted to put spacers on my car with the stock 18s but a bit worried it may mess with the ride. My #1 complain on the car as far as looks is the wheels look a bit too set inwards. I'm seriously considering putting the auto trunk opener to my car.

    Is it legal in NJ to not have front license plate? Do love that no ugly inspection sticker is required on EVs though.
    Come to Florida where we don't require a front plate or yearly inspection.

    Leave a comment:

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