SDGE Standard (DR) NEM 1.0 Customer ... what's next?

[J.P.M.]

Well you were fairly specific about the demise of Tiered rates and TOU, I was hoping you might have given some thought, more specifically, about the future or rates in California. My opinion, and hope, is that we get to real time pricing so I can shift loads and charge my cars at the optimum time. That is my parochial view but I dont think the majority or ratepayers are ready for that. While this may seem to be a hijack, I think it is in the context of "What is next".

My thoughts on tiered rates are based on my beliefs in capitalism's ability to maximize short term gain for corporations (which I'm OK with) as well as people's lack of critical thinking skills and innate mental sloth to not be able to avoid being manipulated by what's actually mindscrewing propaganda (which I can do nothing about).

More like one possible logical outcome given those driving inputs rather than a prediction.

I also think it's logical to entertain the idea that under some future scenarios, users will be paid a premium for daytime distributed generation such as PV and pay draconian rates when most folks are charging their (perhaps) ubiquitous EV's and straining the grid. But that's more mental masturbation, not a prediction.

BTW, and taking you at your word, although I suspect sarcasm in your query , you got your wish - so don't say I never gave you anything - I have given rates a lot of thought - and, since like everyone else, I'm ignorant of what/who is pulling the strings, and I don't have all the information to have a seriously informed opinion on the subject, I fall back to having, by definition, an uninformed and therefore useless opinion. But unlike those future prognosticators who say things like we'll have flying cars and bulletproof underwear, or x-ray vision glasses that can see right through fabrics in 10 years, I don't have a clue about or the ego to think I can predict the future. I only plan for what may have a reasonable probability of being about the worst that might reasonably be expected and hope I'm pleasantly disappointed.

As usual, take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

[Ampster]

Well you were fairly specific about the demise of Tiered rates and TOU, I was hoping you might have given some thought, more specifically, about the future or rates in California. My opinion, and hope, is that we get to real time pricing so I can shift loads and charge my cars at the optimum time. That is my parochial view but I dont think the majority or ratepayers are ready for that. While this may seem to be a hijack, I think it is in the context of "What is next".

[J.P.M.]

I couldn't resist truncating your long answer and turning it into a little humor. LOL

Kind of hard to truncate a short one huh ? That answer was ~110 words. Not near as long as what some consider my usual mental spoor.

Dealing with people with short attention spans or ADHD is one of the risks of trying to provide complete and informative replys/comments.

I try to be complete in my answers/comments.

As for humor, I always took take my engineering and alternate energy matters very seriously. Myself, not so much.

Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

[Ampster]

........I'm pretty much ignorant and clueless....... .

I couldn't resist truncating your long answer and turning it into a little humor. LOL

[J.P.M.]

So what do you think is next?

Since you ask, I think whatever has the highest probability of maximizing return on investment in the eyes of the POCO management has always been what drives "progress". I see nothing now or on the future radar that's likely to change that.

What the manipulated perceptions puked out from all sides that, IMO only, drive some of the social forces that seem to drive most of those probabilities may be, is an area I'm pretty much ignorant and clueless about, except that the social forces are what are easily manipulated by all sides of an issue and so usually done the most. Like in war, truth is the first victim.

[Ampster]

..........

I've no doubt TOU will probably come to an end.........

At some point tiered rates will probably go away. Of that I have no doubt.
......

So what do you think is next? Hourly market based pricing? I understand from the CAISO website that there is a glut of power in the morning and early afternoon from all the solar being generated. As an EV owner I wonder if we will ever see charging stations with price signs like we do with filling stations today.

[J.P.M.]

Arbiter? I was just expressing an opinion.

Me too.

[Ampster]

...............
As for the quality of my question, you can certainly say you understand it not, or you can certainly have the opinion that t's a good/bad/whatever question, but you are not the arbiter of the absolute value of my question.
...........

Arbiter? I was just expressing an opinion. Why is it even impotant enough to comment upon? Did I hit some nerve? This is just a dialog.

[J.P.M.]

I received an email and also a letter but did not know they had "officially" switched me until I went online tonight and checked my account under Pricing Plan. There is where I saw the change being implemented on May 7th.

Here is info from my Pricing Plan on the website since I changed from TOU to Standard again:

Plan Details
Standard plan pricing is based on how much electricity is used.
Pricing is based on electricity use levels, or tiers. As you use more electricity, you cross into higher cost tiers.
Pricing does not change with time of day.
Includes baseline allowance.
Subject to High Usage Charge.

1 Year Commitment: Once you enroll in a new pricing plan, you stay on that plan for one year. At the end of one year, you can remain on the same plan or choose a different plan.

This plan is for you if:

You can conserve to stay under the baseline allowance, or
You cannot shift some of your electricity use away from the on-peak hours of 4 p.m. - 9 p.m.

Thank you far the info. I'd only comment/question:

If residential users are being moved to T.O.U. rates, and tiered rates are being scrapped, why are tiered rates called "Standard" ?

At this time, and by their own statements there are ~ 750,000 SDG & E residential accounts to be switched over to T.O.U. rates - that is - most current residential accounts. By my guess, and an informal survey among my friends and neighbors, most of those users are clueless about what is about to happen. They'll mostly and only find out when the summer bills hit after the switch. Then, folks will be aghast when the summer bills hit, and there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then, two things, among many, will likely occur:

1.) Electrical use will drop. You want people to use less of something - hit'em in the wallet. Works every time.

2.) The PV business will see a revival and PV prices will stabilize or go up a bit, depending on demand for PV as a way of either relief from the bills or a way to get even with the POCO, or both, or how knee-jerky and panicky users get in their urge to run from what they see as high bills.

Meanwhile, most potential PV users will be clueless that PV under the new T.O.U. pricing and hours is now about 20% to 25 % less cost effective than it was under the old T.O.U. pricing, mostly because of the peak pricing hours shift, or that for those who conserve a bit, PV can still be cost effective when used with a tiered rate (which most users may think - with SDG & E's cynical information methods - went away).

[J.P.M.]

I believe it is California Energy Commission policy that dictated that the IOUs (Independently Owned Utilities) move residential customers to TOU rates. Each IOU then submitted to the CPUC their rate plans which may or may not include the options for the customers to opt out and perhaps even to reimburse a ratepayor if his TOU bill is higher than the tiered plan. I would doubt if the CPUC mandated that tiered customers could remain on tiered rates.I think it sounds more like a good will gesture by the IOUs. I could be wrong, it is just an opinion,

You ask a good question about the opt out and whether you would have to do it every year. I haven't read the tariff but I suspect it is not there and after a year if you accept the opt in then you are stuck. I don't have a dog in that fight because I have been on a TOU rate for years with solar and EVs. I have a lot of usage that would likely put me into higher tiers but most of it is at super off peak rates so I have benefited from TOU rates. Even the baseline credit has benefited me under the TOU EV plan with SCE.

I don't believe the CPUC did any such thing. The CPUC gave the IOU's the option and the enabled encouragement for the IOU's to come up with encouraging framework to move customers to TOU. That's probably what they wanted and jumped all over it.

The IOU's, then, seeing a way to get out from the more onerous aspects of NEM as well as some billing methods that may make the demand a bit more manageable as well as enhance revenue a bit, either duped (by half truth/implication/lack of information/confusion/innuhalf truth), or encouraged customers into thinking they (the customers) have no choice in the matter.

I've no doubt TOU will probably come to an end, but that point is not here yet, in spite of what the POCOs may try to convince people of.

From the SDG & E news letter I quoted yesterday: "The non-TOU plans remain available for customers who choose to opt out of TOU pricing plans". I've been told the same verbally for a couple of years now on (I think) 3 occasions by SDG & E personnel tasked with answering customers' questions. They have all been uniform in also stating they do not know when TOU will end, but that it "probably will" (end).

1.) Given the push for TOU, I don't believe for one hot second SDG & E would allow a user to stay on tiered rates if they (SDG & E) weren't required to allow it.

2.) At some point tiered rates will probably go away. Of that I have no doubt.

An example of the confusion being sowed that only helps SDG & E achieve it's ends: A written timeline that states, among other milestones in the TOU transition : "2019: tiered rates end." Then a statement such as the one I quoted from SDG & E material published 03/04/2019 where they write those customers who are on tiered rates can stay there with no mention (in that statement anyway) of tiered rates going away. None of all this B.S. is necessarily false. Most of it that I've seen is confusing, incomplete or conflicting. W.T.F. ?

As for the quality of my question, you can certainly say you understand it not, or you can certainly have the opinion that t's a good/bad/whatever question, but you are not the arbiter of the absolute value of my question.

If you read anything, if you have not done so already, I'd respectfully suggest you consider reading AB 327 and all the shenanigans that led up to it. I found reading it gave me good and essential background.

As a side note, if you, or anyone else read the bill, notice one of the mandates and goals of the bill was to make rate structure and rate setting more understandable for consumers. Given the added confusion and billing complexity I've seen since the bill was signed and implementation has moved forward, that part of the bill seems like a miss or a joke to me at this time.

[rwb1921]

This is little more than anecdotal so I don't say I'm stating fact, but from all my phone calls to SDG & E, I've yet to get a straight answer to the question : "If you switch me to TOU and I proactively decline your generous and so very helpful offer, do I need to renew my election of decline each year ?".

I haven't received such a notice as you've received yet, but I expect one soon enough.

I received an email and also a letter but did not know they had "officially" switched me until I went online tonight and checked my account under Pricing Plan. There is where I saw the change being implemented on May 7th.

Here is info from my Pricing Plan on the website since I changed from TOU to Standard again:

Plan Details
Standard plan pricing is based on how much electricity is used.
Pricing is based on electricity use levels, or tiers. As you use more electricity, you cross into higher cost tiers.
Pricing does not change with time of day.
Includes baseline allowance.
Subject to High Usage Charge.

1 Year Commitment: Once you enroll in a new pricing plan, you stay on that plan for one year. At the end of one year, you can remain on the same plan or choose a different plan.

This plan is for you if:

You can conserve to stay under the baseline allowance, or
You cannot shift some of your electricity use away from the on-peak hours of 4 p.m. - 9 p.m.

[Ampster]

MoJ:

..........
As for how long a tiered rate schedule may remain available, who knows ? My ignorant guess would be that as long as the CPUC mandates it, existing customers who are on tiered rates and want to remain on them, will be allowed to do just that with a tiered rate available to such users but with the option to choose that rate schedule closed to new users at some point, and maybe after 2016 + 20 years, tiered rates simply cease. But, who knows.
.............

I believe it is California Energy Commission policy that dictated that the IOUs (Independently Owned Utilities) move residential customers to TOU rates. Each IOU then submitted to the CPUC their rate plans which may or may not include the options for the customers to opt out and perhaps even to reimburse a ratepayor if his TOU bill is higher than the tiered plan. I would doubt if the CPUC mandated that tiered customers could remain on tiered rates.I think it sounds more like a good will gesture by the IOUs. I could be wrong, it is just an opinion,

You ask a good question about the opt out and whether you would have to do it every year. I haven't read the tariff but I suspect it is not there and after a year if you accept the opt in then you are stuck. I don't have a dog in that fight because I have been on a TOU rate for years with solar and EVs. I have a lot of usage that would likely put me into higher tiers but most of it is at super off peak rates so I have benefited from TOU rates. Even the baseline credit has benefited me under the TOU EV plan with SCE.

[J.P.M.]

I just checked my SDGE account. They were going to switch me to TOU plan on May 7th. I had to go and cancel that change to TOU and say I wanted to stay on Standard DR Plan.

So you may want to check your account page on SDGE website. Also it said this commitment was for 1 year, so maybe have to each year choose to stay on Standard DR Plan if that is what I want to do. Need to be proactive on this it looks like. My change was successful in canceling the TOU change. This can all be done on the website.

This is little more than anecdotal so I don't say I'm stating fact, but from all my phone calls to SDG & E, I've yet to get a straight answer to the question : "If you switch me to TOU and I proactively decline your generous and so very helpful offer, do I need to renew my election of decline each year ?".

I haven't received such a notice as you've received yet, but I expect one soon enough.

[J.P.M.]

Thanks guys ... I have a instinctual distrust of utility companies, so you're confirming where I'm at Since I have everything reporting to PVO (rainforest for consumption, inverter for generation) I'm going to take a stab at it from the data I can download there.

At a high level, looking back and applying the new rates against past performance, I think it's probably best to stay tiered. 10 out of 12 months I'm in the 1st tier - and the other two months (July, August) I hit the 2nd tier. I never hit the "superuser" or now baseline+400% tier.

I really appreciate the thoughtful confirmation - both of my logic and assumptions!

@JPM- I just posted another response in the panel cleaning thread ... I did an experiment measuring output at the same time, two different days (all 100% clear). After cleaning (and I mean CLEANING... hosed down, then with cleaning solution, then soft bristle brush, rinse, then squeegee) I saw a 0.6% increase. Definitely not worth the time, effort, or water cost!

Thanx for the response. For anything I provided that you found useful, you're welcome.

I saw your post about your cleaning. My questions about your panel fouling or performance regradation from such fouling were more meant as a request for more information since that report. I was wondering if you could comment on any recent observations about panel characteristics since then, that is, any dust/mud buildup you might have observed. The horizontal arrays I've seen tend to turn into shallow sandboxes or dirt pans after a dry spell followed by some rain or morning fog around here and other places that tends to cake things up. Just wondering if you saw something similar or whatever.

Just wondering what you've seen after a couple/3 years of observation. Fouling tends to accrue and often up to an order of magnitude more than that 0.6 % you calc'ed.

I also looked at your PVOutput output, both daily and yearly. On the yearly, I noticed you're output for 2016, 2017 and 2018 is 9,686, 9,746 and 9219 kWh/yr. respectively.

I then ran PVWatts for zip 92116 and got an annual output of 11,388 kWh/yr. w/ horizontal orientation and 10 % system losses on a 7.29kW array.

NOMB or concern, but either PVOutput is underreporting, or you've got a lot of shade (as might be the case looking the photos you've provided), or that horizontal orientation is raising hell with keeping things clean, or all of the above or other things as well. I've found PVWatts to be reasonably good at modeling output in a way that matches reality provided the model input reasonably reflects on site reality. At 11,800 kWh/yr. modeled vs., say 9,600 kWh/yr. or less actual, the model is missing something.

Also, are you sure you use more than you generate over a year ? Staying in tier 1 for 10 months out of 12 would mean 10 months of usage would be ~ 9.1 kWh/day*1.3*31 days/billing period * 10 billing periods ~ 3,667 kWh for 10 billing periods (if you're in the coastal zone and also have nat. gas service). But, if you use more than the 9,219 kWh that PVOutput reports you generated for 2018, that would mean for 2 months you used something like 9,219-3,667 = 5,552 kWh. That would also put you way over the 400 % superuser threshold you also say you have avoided.

Am I missing some information here ?

[rwb1921]

I just checked my SDGE account. They were going to switch me to TOU plan on May 7th. I had to go and cancel that change to TOU and say I wanted to stay on Standard DR Plan.

So you may want to check your account page on SDGE website. Also it said this commitment was for 1 year, so maybe have to each year choose to stay on Standard DR Plan if that is what I want to do. Need to be proactive on this it looks like. My change was successful in canceling the TOU change. This can all be done on the website.