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  • J.P.M.
    Solar Fanatic
    • Aug 2013
    • 15038

    #16
    Originally posted by branflakecereal

    This all does make sense. Adjusting for bond yields, an investment I see as a similar risk factor, it'd take me about 15 years for PV to exceed the value. I already have maximized my tax deferred retirement contributions, and I tend to be fairly risk averse with money, hence not wanting to strike out on any riskier, potentially higher yielding investments.

    Ultimately, my vision is to have my home paid off in the next 15 years, and if I did that along with having Solar to wipe out my utility needs, my only expenses would be food, taxes, insurance and transportation, setting myself up to be comfortable on a fixed income later in life.

    Aside from going the diy route (not for me, I don't have the skill set and I know it), is something in the 2.75 per watt installed range a fair price to pay in the current market?

    I'm fairly confident that this is an investment I won't go bust on, which is good enough for me. I realize I'm not exactly buying Amazon stock circa 2005, but I'm not looking for staggeringly high yield. I'm just looking for safe.
    Understood (I think).

    On risk, one thing potential PV users often overlook is the risk associated with ROI deterioration on PV in any net metering scheme by the POCO. That risk is, in the eyes of some, greater than in the past.

    Example: in CA about 2 or so years ago, Net Energy Metering ("NEM") and how folks are charged for electricity in terms of rates and effective tariffs/schedules got changed/rearranged. Fairness (or not) aside, the bottom line for many if not most residential customers of the big 3 Investor Owned Utilities - IOU's (and often other POCOs by choice or chance) was to lower the bill offset that a PV system would accomplish, not in terms of how much power a PV system would generate over the course of a year, but how much of an electric bill a PV system would offset both in terms of total $$'s and % of the bill. For SDG & E for example, and depending somewhat on usage quantity and time of that usage, a PV system's ROI was reduced from what it was before rate restructuring to after rate restructuring by something like ~~ 20-25 %. With NEM being on the decline in terms of not being as sweet a deal as it was a year or two ago, and that being a seemingly common trend, at least in the U.S., it might be a good idea to add that to the future uncertainty of the economics of PV.

    On DIY, I'd suggest that DIY posters make up a larger %age of posters on this forum than the %age of DIYers in the general population. I appreciate their sensibilities and point of view, but I'm not sure their confidence in their abilities is always justified. From a lot of DIY stuff I've seen, it seems to me that if all the world's infrastructure was done the way most DIYers do projects, the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization. Not everyone has the skills necessary in spite of what they may think to pull off a safe and well designed project. I wouldn't feel bad about not undertaking a DIY project.

    $ 2.75/STC Watt may or may not be a good price - it depends on where you are. I'd still caution about getting stuck in the first cost syndrome. It's certainly terrible to pay too much for something, but it's worse to pay too little.

    In the end, you will get what you pay for (or less). Negotiate tough but fair (whether you know it, or believe it, or not, everything is negotiable). But, vendors being in business to make money as they usually are, squeeze a vendor too hard and the vendor will make up more than (s)he gives up in ways you will be completely unaware of but will nonetheless pay for perhaps several times over, depending on how much you piss them off by being a badass negotiator/gonad crusher.

    Lastly, in your deliberations on possible choices and how PV may fit into a financial picture, you may benefit from being aware (or maybe just beware) of what you hear/read about what a PV system will do to the resale value of a home. It seems that the effects of PV on resale value, whatever they are, may be quite local, and not always positive, at least not at this time. Also, it seems to me anyway, those who claim PV will always and without fail increase the probability of a higher resale price than comparable homes without PV: #1, don't understand how PV works including some of the potential liabilities, and #2, usually have skin in the game. To their ends, such folks usually conjure up/resurrect some B.S. stats from some real estate slug who knows less than they do about it and trot out some numbers may or may not be valid or meaningful. Bottom line, at this time, a lot of the informed money is assuming PV neither increases or decreases selling prices. Whether that's true or not, those saying PV always increases a home's resale value may not have the tightest grasp on reality.

    You probably won't go bust on PV. On the other hand, there any be any number of other places where the $, if not spent on PV, will perhaps work as hard for equal or lower risk. Absolutely NOMB, but, as a possible suggestion and example of one of several possible alternate investments and depending on your mortgage interest rate and tax situation etc., one possible alternate and pretty safe investment to PV might be something as simple as a lump sum payment for mortgage reduction. In effect a form of risk free return. That's all about comparison of alternatives. Just sayin'.

    Comment

    • discodanman45
      Solar Fanatic
      • Jan 2018
      • 126

      #17
      I know real estate agents in my area and they say that solar is one of the best improvements you can do to your home. The one I know really well says that the return of the solar on a sale is over 75%. Here in California the value of solar is probably the highest in the nation and people want it. We have some of the highest electricity prices, net metering stays with the house for 20 years, and we have great subsidies for EV's that can also be powered by solar. There was a house in my neighborhood that advertised a $40,000 solar system installed and they sold it for $25,000 over what the same exact model house sold for a month earlier. The advertised $40,000 system was only 10 kW. The house was on the market for about 1 day, people are looking for solar in Central California. They also had no trouble in closing even with the comps in this area. The solar panels were taken into consideration at closing to increase the value of the home. In a sellers market, solar definitely will add value to the house. I would say in my area, the 11.25 kW system I installed for about $22,000 after taxes added a minimum $15,000 to the value of my house.

      Comment

      • RenewablesRock
        Member
        • Jul 2018
        • 88

        #18
        Originally posted by emartin00

        Not exactly. Labor, training, insurance, permitting, planning; They all add to the cost. $3/watt isn't a terrible cost for an install. It's not great, but it's not absurd.
        $30k for a 10 Kw system is insane. You need to live at that house until you die to one day break even. I want to do all of the labor and not pay training, insurance, permitting or planning. This has to be a 100% DIY set up to be cost effective. I wish I didn't live in the city.

        Comment

        • discodanman45
          Solar Fanatic
          • Jan 2018
          • 126

          #19
          Originally posted by RenewablesRock

          $30k for a 10 Kw system is insane. You need to live at that house until you die to one day break even. I want to do all of the labor and not pay training, insurance, permitting or planning. This has to be a 100% DIY set up to be cost effective. I wish I didn't live in the city.
          It all depends on location. I will break even with a 11.25 kW system in about three years, and before the credit it cost me a bit under $32,000. If I didn't have solar I would have paid over $4000 for electricity this year and $3000 in gas with my old 37 mpg Ford Fusion Hybrid. My 11.25 kW system covers 100% of my electricity and "gas bill" since I bought an EV that I put about 30,000 miles a year on. Without subsidies I probably wouldn't have bought my EV, but thank you for the tax payers in California for allowing me to purchase a $37,000 car for under $25,000. Sell to the grid at $0.47 per kWh and use at $0.12 per kWh. The PG&E EV rate is amazing if you plan it out!

          Comment

          • ButchDeal
            Solar Fanatic
            • Apr 2014
            • 3802

            #20
            Originally posted by RenewablesRock

            $30k for a 10 Kw system is insane. You need to live at that house until you die to one day break even. I want to do all of the labor and not pay training, insurance, permitting or planning. This has to be a 100% DIY set up to be cost effective. I wish I didn't live in the city.
            On a DIY you still have to pay for insurancem, permitting, interconnect, and planning. You can WANT all day, makes no difference.
            OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

            Comment

            • branflakecereal
              Junior Member
              • Jul 2018
              • 7

              #21
              I doubt in my area (N. FL) I'd ever have the ROI if for any reason I sold. But I'm sure it'd at least add something. That said, I plan on staying where I am for a long time. And, yeah, I'd love to make my money back in 3 years. But if it was that cheap, it wouldn't be a tricky decision for, er, anyone. While I'm at it, I'd also like someone to sell me a helicopter for 5 grand.

              Comment

              • RenewablesRock
                Member
                • Jul 2018
                • 88

                #22
                Originally posted by ButchDeal

                On a DIY you still have to pay for insurancem, permitting, interconnect, and planning. You can WANT all day, makes no difference.
                Not going to. I'm just going to install it the cheapest way I can. THOUSANDS of people on YouTube haven't done it. Maybe if I were going to cover my entire roof with 15 to 30+ panels, yes. But I'm only mounting 2 to 4 panels. Not a big deal.

                Comment

                • RenewablesRock
                  Member
                  • Jul 2018
                  • 88

                  #23
                  Originally posted by discodanman45
                  I know real estate agents in my area and they say that solar is one of the best improvements you can do to your home. The one I know really well says that the return of the solar on a sale is over 75%. Here in California the value of solar is probably the highest in the nation and people want it. We have some of the highest electricity prices, net metering stays with the house for 20 years, and we have great subsidies for EV's that can also be powered by solar. There was a house in my neighborhood that advertised a $40,000 solar system installed and they sold it for $25,000 over what the same exact model house sold for a month earlier. The advertised $40,000 system was only 10 kW. The house was on the market for about 1 day, people are looking for solar in Central California. They also had no trouble in closing even with the comps in this area. The solar panels were taken into consideration at closing to increase the value of the home. In a sellers market, solar definitely will add value to the house. I would say in my area, the 11.25 kW system I installed for about $22,000 after taxes added a minimum $15,000 to the value of my house.
                  Well, if you're going to get above and beyond what you paid, then it's definitely work it. Electric is about $.10 per Kw here.

                  Comment

                  • sdold
                    Moderator
                    • Jun 2014
                    • 1466

                    #24
                    Originally posted by RenewablesRock

                    Not going to. I'm just going to install it the cheapest way I can. THOUSANDS of people on YouTube haven't done it. Maybe if I were going to cover my entire roof with 15 to 30+ panels, yes. But I'm only mounting 2 to 4 panels. Not a big deal.
                    If you go the bootleg route, don't expect much help from the knowledgeable members and especially the professionals here. This may be a DIY forum, but it's absolutely not a hack forum and that is what sets it apart from other sites, youtube and other questionable sources. Bad information and advice, and a disregard for safety and codes aren't tolerated here, so don't start down that road.

                    Comment

                    • RenewablesRock
                      Member
                      • Jul 2018
                      • 88

                      #25
                      Originally posted by sdold
                      If you go the bootleg route, don't expect much help from the knowledgeable members and especially the professionals here. This may be a DIY forum, but it's absolutely not a hack forum and that is what sets it apart from other sites, youtube and other questionable sources. Bad information and advice, and a disregard for safety and codes aren't tolerated here, so don't start down that road.
                      Gotcha. Thanks.

                      Comment

                      • ButchDeal
                        Solar Fanatic
                        • Apr 2014
                        • 3802

                        #26
                        Originally posted by RenewablesRock

                        Not going to. I'm just going to install it the cheapest way I can. THOUSANDS of people on YouTube haven't done it. Maybe if I were going to cover my entire roof with 15 to 30+ panels, yes. But I'm only mounting 2 to 4 panels. Not a big deal.
                        .... only planning on taking a few hundred from the bank at gun point, not a big deal.

                        Good luck with your highly illegal, half ass solution but please stop telling others about it unless you are going to add that you are doing it illegally and with zero safety.
                        OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

                        Comment

                        • RenewablesRock
                          Member
                          • Jul 2018
                          • 88

                          #27
                          Originally posted by ButchDeal

                          .... only planning on taking a few hundred from the bank at gun point, not a big deal.

                          Good luck with your highly illegal, half ass solution but please stop telling others about it unless you are going to add that you are doing it illegally and with zero safety.
                          Please stop insulting people. If you are going to be so arrogant, then don't even sign on here. I really don't need this BS. If I were the moderator, I would ban you for your comments. I came here to help people and also get advice. I didn't come here to be insulted from a-ssholes like you. Just because of a high post count doesn't mean you're a god here. You threw the first punch. I am putting breakers where needed. There's safety in place. Nobody said I wanted to burn my house down. Stop posting comments like an idiot. What I am doing is no different than thousands of other people out there. So if you're insulting me, you're also insulting the majority of the people posting videos on YouTube. Maybe you like to be a debt monster, but not all of us do. I am not going to get buried in debt to make you happy. I am going to spend what I can afford and nothing more. If this means that I will build my system little by little, then so be it. Every month I will buy one part at a time. I won't sit here insulting people for not spending $30k on a full grid-tie system. I am going to build a small off-grid system for emergencies only. Just like somebody spending $500 on a generator. I will have something in place to use after a hurricane hits and then I can charge my phones, power a TV, run a few fans and hopefully my fridge in the future.

                          I was just quoted $150 for a proper wall mount. Eventually I am going to put this outside after I get at least 4 of the panels professionally wall mounted:


                          Everything will run with conduit pipes and be done, at my pace, not yours with the $20,000+ budget. But I am not going to sit there and insult people and call their system a hack or half ass. People do what they can do. I never insult anyone. So stop making forum wars and help people instead. Nobody wants to read arguments on here. They want to read stuff that is going to help them.

                          Comment

                          • J.P.M.
                            Solar Fanatic
                            • Aug 2013
                            • 15038

                            #28
                            Originally posted by RenewablesRock

                            Please stop insulting people. If you are going to be so arrogant, then don't even sign on here. I really don't need this BS. If I were the moderator, I would ban you for your comments. I came here to help people and also get advice. I didn't come here to be insulted from a-ssholes like you. Just because of a high post count doesn't mean you're a god here. You threw the first punch. I am putting breakers where needed. There's safety in place. Nobody said I wanted to burn my house down. Stop posting comments like an idiot. What I am doing is no different than thousands of other people out there. So if you're insulting me, you're also insulting the majority of the people posting videos on YouTube. Maybe you like to be a debt monster, but not all of us do. I am not going to get buried in debt to make you happy. I am going to spend what I can afford and nothing more. If this means that I will build my system little by little, then so be it. Every month I will buy one part at a time. I won't sit here insulting people for not spending $30k on a full grid-tie system. I am going to build a small off-grid system for emergencies only. Just like somebody spending $500 on a generator. I will have something in place to use after a hurricane hits and then I can charge my phones, power a TV, run a few fans and hopefully my fridge in the future.

                            I was just quoted $150 for a proper wall mount. Eventually I am going to put this outside after I get at least 4 of the panels professionally wall mounted:
                            https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-200-A...324R/202978662

                            Everything will run with conduit pipes and be done, at my pace, not yours with the $20,000+ budget. But I am not going to sit there and insult people and call their system a hack or half ass. People do what they can do. I never insult anyone. So stop making forum wars and help people instead. Nobody wants to read arguments on here. They want to read stuff that is going to help them.
                            RR: In your short tenure here, seems to me most of your advice has been at least poor and based on what you may think you know, but is often poorly thought out and in more than a few cases, unsafe, more than a little parochial and most of the time just plain ignorant.

                            I'm sure you don't want to burn your house down, but from what you write, particularly with what looks to me to be a dangerously cavalier attitude toward safety, and your apparent (to me anyway) lack of understanding of why standards and codes exist, I wouldn't bet on that not happening.

                            Looks to me like you've got a big chip on your shoulder about all of this, but I suppose opinions vary.

                            As for Butch and what he writes here, he or his position on this doesn't need defending. He & I don't always agree, but from what I've seen of his information and yours, I'm pretty sure he forgot more about alternate energy applications and solar tech than you'll know for quite some time - and with the way you're going, maybe you'll never catch up.

                            If I were you, I'd listen (read) more to what people offer here, and talk (write) less. You'll learn more and look a lot less ignorant. You have a lot to learn.

                            Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

                            Mods: I don't tell folks how to do their job, but RenewablesRock's posts, advice and attitude toward safety is a problem. He's unsafe in what he writes.

                            Comment

                            • ButchDeal
                              Solar Fanatic
                              • Apr 2014
                              • 3802

                              #29
                              Originally posted by RenewablesRock

                              Please stop insulting people. If you are going to be so arrogant, then don't even sign on here. I really don't need this BS. If I were the moderator, I would ban you for your comments. I came here to help people and also get advice. I didn't come here to be insulted from a-ssholes like you. Just because of a high post count doesn't mean you're a god here. You threw the first punch. I am putting breakers where needed. There's safety in place. Nobody said I wanted to burn my house down. Stop posting comments like an idiot. What I am doing is no different than thousands of other people out there. So if you're insulting me, you're also insulting the majority of the people posting videos on YouTube. Maybe you like to be a debt monster, but not all of us do. I am not going to get buried in debt to make you happy. I am going to spend what I can afford and nothing more. If this means that I will build my system little by little, then so be it. Every month I will buy one part at a time. I won't sit here insulting people for not spending $30k on a full grid-tie system. I am going to build a small off-grid system for emergencies only. Just like somebody spending $500 on a generator. I will have something in place to use after a hurricane hits and then I can charge my phones, power a TV, run a few fans and hopefully my fridge in the future.

                              I was just quoted $150 for a proper wall mount. Eventually I am going to put this outside after I get at least 4 of the panels professionally wall mounted:
                              https://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-200-A...324R/202978662

                              Everything will run with conduit pipes and be done, at my pace, not yours with the $20,000+ budget. But I am not going to sit there and insult people and call their system a hack or half ass. People do what they can do. I never insult anyone. So stop making forum wars and help people instead. Nobody wants to read arguments on here. They want to read stuff that is going to help them.
                              WOW, you think I should be banned but you advocate illegal activity and think you are helping people?

                              You are the one that said you were not going to get a permit and I quote
                              Not going to. I am just going to install it the cheapest way I can
                              This was in response to my note :
                              Originally posted by ButchDeal
                              On a DIY you still have to pay for insurance, permitting, interconnect, and planning.
                              So you were clearly stating that you were not going to get required insurance, or permitting, or an interconnect or work with planning...

                              Thus my response of calling that system Half-assed.


                              and
                              Originally posted by RenewablesRock
                              I never insult anyone.
                              Really:

                              Originally posted by RenewablesRock
                              Stop posting comments like an idiot
                              Or
                              Originally posted by RenewablesRock
                              from a-ssholes like you
                              See the difference is I called a system that you claimed to be NOT doing legally and as cheaply as possible, a Half-Assed System; which is the definition of the term Half-assed. I didn't say anything about you.

                              You on the other hand just called me (not my system) both an idiot and a-sshole, but at the same time lied and said you never insult anyone. But please do go on not insulting people.

                              and as for this:
                              Originally posted by RenewablesRock
                              So if you're insulting me, you're also insulting the majority of the people posting videos on YouTube
                              really am I insulting thousands of people ( and you) for doing things illegally and dangerously?
                              do you feel safe because others are doing the same thing as you?

                              That just isn't how it works. Just because others are doing it does not make it any more legal or safe.
                              Last edited by ButchDeal; 07-31-2018, 02:04 PM.
                              OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

                              Comment

                              • solar pete
                                Administrator
                                • May 2014
                                • 1840

                                #30
                                Ok... just noticed this, RR time for you to take a holiday for a week. I dont have any issues with people doing little projects to learn about solar in fact just the opposite really but you have been given good advise for free and you seem to be offended by it.

                                For any other newb reading this please note youtube IS the new idiots bible and should be ignored by everyone who wants to do things properly, cheers.

                                Comment

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