U.S. Energy Information Electricity Prices.

[SunEagle]

If you're looking at solar strictly from an investment perspective then 10 years is probably a long payback. I look at solar as producing electricity without using fossil fuels. The financial side is a bonus.

I understand your desire for solar. Mine is attributed more to understanding it's abilities since I was researching it when I was in college back in the 70's.

As for fossil fuels...you don't want to go there with me.

[frankiek3]

Ask yourself why some states residential customers pay less than 10-cents per Kwh and the rate goes down for the more they use, while other states charge as much a 45-cents and rates go up for the more you use.

Your logic is severely flawed. Ask yourself where the power comes from at night and cloudy days. For every watt of solar installed there must be a conventional watt to replace it at a moments notice. You are paying twice.

Only one answer you can come up with. Politics. Electricity is dirt cheap to generate. California has to import 30% of their power because they refuse to generate power. That makes them dependent on other states who hold CA hostage. Typical Fruit and Nuts CA politics.

But to answer your question as an example in TX the Left Coast Island called Austin is the only city that mandates Net Metering. As a result Austin has the highest electric rates in the state of around 12 to 13 cents per Kwh. Rest of TX pays less than 10-cents. Basically Net Metering is welfare for the rich. Poor people cannot afford solar and force to pay for those who do not need their support. People are finally starting to know that and is why utilities are pushing back. Utilities do not need solar. It is forced upon them. What the public is now learning state regulators allow then to jack rates up to make up for the loses incurred.

Utilities are not building generation. They are taking that money and paying dividends back to stock holders waiting for the shoe to drop. Sooner rather than later demand will exceed production. When that happens the Utilities will say told you so, get the laws changed, and come to you for the money to catch up over a failed energy policy. CA will be the first to cry uncle.

i think you missed my joke or meant to reply to someone else?
Let's say your service fee is $20/month to be hooked up to the grid and you use 10kWh of electricity in a month at a rate of $0.15/kWh. That's $2.15/kWh and meaningless data to track.

[CodeeCB]

Yep prices have been dropping for the last 13 years in RED states. States without mandatory Net Metering have the lowest rates. Someone has to pay for all that free money Blue States like giving away to the rich. Nothing better than making the poor pay for it.

Not sure about that, I feel that $.118 kWh in MN is pretty reasonable and we have net metering in which they send you a check for over production or you can bank it for later as a statement credit. Additionally, to encourage solar adoption you can get reimbursed an additional $.08 per kWh for the first 10 years as long as the system size is under 120% of your previous years usage when it is built.

[reader2580]

Not sure about that, I feel that $.118 kWh in MN is pretty reasonable and we have net metering in which they send you a check for over production or you can bank it for later as a statement credit. Additionally, to encourage solar adoption you can get reimbursed an additional $.08 per kWh for the first 10 years as long as the system size is under 120% of your previous years usage when it is built.

Unfortunately, the 8 cents per KWh payments don't apply to customers of CO-OPs in Minnesota. If I could get all the incentives given to customers of investor owned utilities my payback period would be cut in half or more.

[Sunking]

Unfortunately, the 8 cents per KWh payments don't apply to customers of CO-OPs in Minnesota. If I could get all the incentives given to customers of investor owned utilities my payback period would be cut in half or more.

That is because government utilities are not mandated and forced into Net Metering. The COOPs are not that stupid to give money away. The members would cut their balls off.

[ButchDeal]

That is because government utilities are not mandated and forced into Net Metering. The COOPs are not that stupid to give money away.

No it is because in most states the legislations is for publicly traded utilities. Municipal and COOPs generally do not qualify as publicly traded.
Many Coops do have net metering, they are the wild west though as some have some strange rules like dual metering which prevents backup bimodal systems etc.

A few Coops have tried to discourage net metering in a strange attempt to encourage more members to buy into their own community solar plans.

[Sunking]

No it is because in most states the legislations is for publicly traded utilities. Municipal and COOPs generally do not qualify as publicly traded.
Many Coops do have net metering, they are the wild west though as some have some strange rules like dual metering which prevents backup bimodal systems etc.

A few Coops have tried to discourage net metering in a strange attempt to encourage more members to buy into their own community solar plans.

Agree, my point is COOPs get their money (Loans and Subsidies) from REC (fed goberment), and are exempt from state utility commissions. Put another way are not Forced or Mandated like I said. They can do whatever they want and the members will not allow anything that would raise their rates. FWIW those Solar Farms COOPs have are heavily subsidized by federal tax dollars like SWPA. Built a large one for Western Farmers Electric COOP several years back.

[ButchDeal]

Agree, my point is COOPs get their money (Loans and Subsidies) from REC (fed goberment), and are exempt from state utility commissions. Put another way are not Forced or Mandated like I said. They can do whatever they want and the members will not allow anything that would raise their rates. FWIW those Solar Farms COOPs have are heavily subsidized by federal tax dollars like SWPA. Built a large one for Western Farmers Electric COOP several years back.

You got that right. One COOP had net metering when we started a deal with 4 different houses, then they had a meeting (that none of the customers went to) and talked about no one buying into their solar farm that they spend several $million on the previous year. there were several suggestions about net metering being a better deal and that was why no one was buying into the solar farm. They made three motions to end net metering, levy a base fee for residential solar, and require dual metering (100% of power is sold to coop and purchased back at higher rate). I found the minutes of this meeting and sent it to all the customers, they were furious and all complained but the vote was cast and done. One wanted a battery backup solution which I argued for hours with several people at the coop that there was NO WAY to do a battery backup system on a dual meeter as they required it, they even pulled in some of their own engineers to explain it TO ME, and every one of the engineers said pretty much at once, HE IS RIGHT, can't be done. Still they wouldn't change the policy we gave customer his money back.

It is another great example of true democracy sticking its head up its ass (though as mentioned none of these customers which were full members by virtue of being a customer were at any of the meetings).

[Sunking]

You got that right.

Know how it is Butch. I have one extra dimension, I also get to work with Rural Telephone companies who are also regulated by REC, same chit, on different sides of the street. They share the same right-of-ways, know each other quite well, and both know how to do the Washington Two-Step Dance. Most people do not know who the REC is and how much tax money goes into it. Although I will say, the goberment generation plants pay for most of it. They can get away with things Investor owned utilities cannot get away with like build a nuclear plant in with rail lines to bring in coal, and pipelines in without public knowledge. All paid by DOD using a nuclear plant to generate electricity, use reactor heat to turn coal into Diesel and Jet Fuel, and then pump out to military facilities via pipelines.

[reader2580]

That is because government utilities are not mandated and forced into Net Metering. The COOPs are not that stupid to give money away. The members would cut their balls off.

CO-OPs in Minnesota are still required to offer net metering by state law. CO-OPs are allowed to charge a cost recovery fee for solar customers. One CO-OP charges $80 a month to solar customers. I pay $7 or $8 a month for having solar.

[CodeeCB]

From my understanding MN has solid net metering, however your extra fees and benefits can vary widely depending on if you're a Xcel energy customer (lucky for you!) or a co-op. Luckily my co-op has a cap at around $26 for just because fees but the lower other side of my city gets a investor owned company which gets rebates, extra money on top of normal rates for 10 years as well as as a flat monthly charge of around $10.

[reader2580]

From my understanding MN has solid net metering, however your extra fees and benefits can vary widely depending on if you're a Xcel energy customer (lucky for you!) or a co-op. Luckily my co-op has a cap at around $26 for just because fees but the lower other side of my city gets a investor owned company which gets rebates, extra money on top of normal rates for 10 years as well as as a flat monthly charge of around $10.

You are absolutely correct that Xcel customers get some great incentives to go solar. Between the federal tax credit, Xcel's own incentives, and the Made in Minnesota incentive one can do solar really cheap with Xcel. I think the Made in Minnesota incentive is only if you use a contractor and is not for DIY.

[ButchDeal]

and the Made in Minnesota incentive one can do solar really cheap with Xcel. I think the Made in Minnesota incentive is only if you use a contractor and is not for DIY.

I am not sure about DIY with Made in Minnesota but I do know that the equipment "made" in Minnesota is really just assembled there and highly (very highly) over priced. So much so that we were able to show the same ROI without it using superior equipment (read higher cost than base but much cheaper than Made in Minnesota crap). I would highly encourage other to do a real fiscal investigation of their own before jumping on buying made in Minnesota crap from companies that are only in existence for the incentive (meaning they are not going to be around for support or warranty)

[J.P.M.]

I am not sure about DIY with Made in Minnesota but I do know that the equipment "made" in Minnesota is really just assembled there and highly (very highly) over priced. So much so that we were able to show the same ROI without it using superior equipment (read higher cost than base but much cheaper than Made in Minnesota crap). I would highly encourage other to do a real fiscal investigation of their own before jumping on buying made in Minnesota crap from companies that are only in existence for the incentive (meaning they are not going to be around for support or warranty)

I know this is sketchy, but there was a poster here ~ 2013/2014 who's handle I forget that was in MN, used MN panels and, as I seem to remember didn't make out so well as he'd originally thought. I also have a somewhat vague recollection the price of the panels he used was pretty jacked up and (perhaps for that reason) that the panels were only being used in MN.

Anyone else remember that poster ? He was a regular for awhile.

[reader2580]

I never looked into the Made in Minnesota incentives all that much because I don't qualify being a CO-OP customer. My understanding is there are currently two companies doing final assembly in Minnesota simply due to the incentives. They are both part of larger solar companies and not companies just doing business in Minnesota. Ten K was a manufacturer building panels in Minnesota that went out of business. They did a very large panel that was not a standard size. The solar company that helped with the electrical part of my project had a vehicle just for hauling Ten K panels.