U.S. Energy Information Electricity Prices.

[reader2580]

I am sure you can cherry pick POCO's and rates in Texas, or anywhere for that matter, to make your point.

But if you look at the electric rates in Hawaii, CA and New England they tend to be much higher then the rest of the US and those areas also tend to have POCO's that are required to provide a high payback to customers having solar pv systems.

Hawaii in many areas doesn't allow exporting of power to the grid anymore.

[SunEagle]

Hawaii in many areas doesn't allow exporting of power to the grid anymore.

I know. That is why the POCO's have required new solar customers to install "storage systems" to get approval to connect to the grid.

They had such a high % of customers that went over to pv that the grid infrastructure is now inadequate to handle the "two way" transmission of power. The only way to stop the damage was to also stop new grid tie systems. Part of the cost to upgrade the grid is now being picked up by all of the customers with or without pv.

While it might not be the only reason the rates have increased, someone can easily say solar has been part of the problem.

[jflorey2]

I am sure you can cherry pick POCO's and rates in Texas, or anywhere for that matter, to make your point.

Oh, absolutely. I was just pointing out that in Texas that doesn't hold true.

You mention Hawaii above. Exorbitant rates because they generate almost all their power from fuel oil, because that's the easiest fuel to transport to an island. They peaked in 2008 because the price of oil hit a peak in 2008. And that drove a lot of solar adoption - because at 35 cents/kwhr the payback time on solar is very low. This drove so much solar adoption that Hawaii has had to end net metering in many places, and permit only grid-zero installations.

So it would be hard to argue that solar metering of solar is the reason Hawaiian power prices are so high. Indeed, solar (which nowadays is grid zero solar) is the one thing that _makes_ energy affordable for a lot of people in Hawaii.

[SunEagle]

Oh, absolutely. I was just pointing out that in Texas that doesn't hold true.

You mention Hawaii above. Exorbitant rates because they generate almost all their power from fuel oil, because that's the easiest fuel to transport to an island. They peaked in 2008 because the price of oil hit a peak in 2008. And that drove a lot of solar adoption - because at 35 cents/kwhr the payback time on solar is very low. This drove so much solar adoption that Hawaii has had to end net metering in many places, and permit only grid-zero installations.

So it would be hard to argue that solar metering of solar is the reason Hawaiian power prices are so high. Indeed, solar (which nowadays is grid zero solar) is the one thing that _makes_ energy affordable for a lot of people in Hawaii.

I agree that Hawaii may be a different case concerning high POCO rates along with high # of PV installations. Although I guess we could argue the point that if you pick anywhere in the US are the POCO rates higher due to PV net metering, infrastructure costs or investors that require more than a few cents on the dollar for their money.

I am waiting to see what the POCO's in Florida will be doing with their rates since they all seem to be building (finally) large solar arrays.

I still can't make a financial reason to install solar at my home since even with Net Metering my payback is close to 10 years since my rate is around $0.12/kWH.

[reader2580]

I still can't make a financial reason to install solar at my home since even with Net Metering my payback is close to 10 years since my rate is around $0.12/kWH.

Since most of the equipment will last 20+ years why is a 10 year payback an issue? What payback would make it work for you?

My rate is around 13 cents per KWh with a payback of for me of about 10 years. If I had not done mostly DIY it would be way over 10 years and not really a great idea.

[bcroe]

Since most of the equipment will last 20+ years why is a 10 year payback an issue?

Some of us want it to probably be in our lifetime. Bruce Roe

[jflorey2]

I agree that Hawaii may be a different case concerning high POCO rates along with high # of PV installations. Although I guess we could argue the point that if you pick anywhere in the US are the POCO rates higher due to PV net metering, infrastructure costs or investors that require more than a few cents on the dollar for their money.

A recent study by Berkeley looked at how net metering affected overall power rates. It varied from zero in most of the US to up to 5% in areas of California with very high solar penetration. (There are areas of Hawaii that had more solar penetration, but since their power prices were already so high, the percentage change was lower.)

It also looked at the effects of improving energy efficiency, which had a much larger effect overall. Countrywide, PV changes power costs by less than a tenth of a cent; efficiency improvements can increase costs by up to .8 cents. (Fixed costs spread over a smaller number of kwhrs.)

[SunEagle]

Some of us want to probably be in our lifetime. Bruce Roe

LOL. I hope I last another 10 years but I still want a payback less then that.

One thing I have to look at is how much I can DIY in my neck of the woods. It looks like Florida has loosened some of the restrictions concerning who is allowed to install any part of a solar pv system. Still I am looking at a ground mount which will cost more then a roof mount so that type of install will add more to the cost per watt.

[SunEagle]

Since most of the equipment will last 20+ years why is a 10 year payback an issue? What payback would make it work for you?

My rate is around 13 cents per KWh with a payback of for me of about 10 years. If I had not done mostly DIY it would be way over 10 years and not really a great idea.

I guess how I spend my money is more important to me then a solar pv system. Even 8 years is a long time to wait to get my money back from an investment.

[J.P.M.]

Since most of the equipment will last 20+ years why is a 10 year payback an issue? What payback would make it work for you?

My rate is around 13 cents per KWh with a payback of for me of about 10 years. If I had not done mostly DIY it would be way over 10 years and not really a great idea.

Might be an issue, depending on, among other things, how old somebody is.

Who knows how old we all are or where we may be in X years ? Besides, with a lot of areas seeing simple paybacks on residential PV something like 5-7 years for turnkey systems , and depending on one's situation, 10 years may be deemed a relatively long time - like if I was, say, already 85.

Besides, there's a lot more to process economics and determining cost effectiveness than simple payback, not to mention lifestyle choices.

[bcroe]

Still I am looking at a ground mount which will cost more then a roof
mount so that type of install will add more to the cost per watt.

I think a ground mount will present a lot more opportunities for a DIY er to save money, both initially
and later. By using a mini back hoe and concrete mixer, I saved the considerable cost of heavy earth
moving and ready mix equipment coming in. Not to mention environmental damage avoided, a
substantial cost for earlier work. And it didn't have to all be set up for one giant project day (with
family sized crew), it could be done piecemeal as convenient. My concrete needed to be poured in
several stages, but the result was much better, with minimum materials used.

Hope a hole at your location doesn't immediately fill with water. Here its mostly rock. Bruce Roe

[reader2580]

If you're looking at solar strictly from an investment perspective then 10 years is probably a long payback. I look at solar as producing electricity without using fossil fuels. The financial side is a bonus.

[J.P.M.]

If you're looking at solar strictly from an investment perspective then 10 years is probably a long payback. I look at solar as producing electricity without using fossil fuels. The financial side is a bonus.

Well, that's one outcome/goal. Everyone has a different goal set.

[Sunking]

Oh, absolutely. I was just pointing out that in Texas that doesn't hold true.

Hogwash, I already proved you wrong with you own link and words. AUSTIN ENERGY lefty. Now shut up.

[Sunking]

If I make an Investment for 10 years, I expect to double my money, not break even and get nothing. Investing $10,000 today and only have $10,000 after 10 years is not an investment, it is a loss.

If you think that is a good deal I got an opportunity of a lifetime for you. Give me $10,000 today, and I guarantee you in 10 years to give you $11,000 a full 10% gain. We will both be tickled pink. Guess it is that funny math schools teach today.