Hyundai vs LG vs Sunpower

[inspron]

Any chance you're in line for a referral fee ?

I wish!

I joined this forum and learned quite a bit in the last few months. Initially I explored the cheapest options - non permitted DIY solution - but eventually came to my senses and went with a professionally installed system. After doing the math, I realized that the ROI on my install is 3.1 year and for most under 5 years. Ever since I have been promoting solar to anyone expressed an interest. So far 3 of my friends went solar in the last 2 months. This month, I just purchased another system for my parents home. No "referral fee" of any kind, just promoting what I believe in. Specific installer recommendation because I've met with 10 different vendors and most of the salesman were less informed about solar than me after 2 months of reading up on this forums. I had several vendors trying to sell me the fact that their system could do "individual panel monitoring" - as if that is a brand new tech and it is so unique to their install. I strongly recommend Sunline because of my personal experience - they paid a lot of attention to details and did everything the way I asked them to without nickel and diming me. Had I had a positive experience with another installer and they did a good job, I would have recommended the same.

If recommending a vendor is against forums rules, please let me know and I will stop.

[sensij]

If recommending a vendor is against forums rules, please let me know and I will stop.

Vendor recommendations when accompanied by their solarreviews.com page are generally welcome. For example, Sunline.

I may have missed it in another thread... what did you have installed, and what did it cost?

Most professional installs do *not* achieve 5 year ROI by generally accepted accounting, but for high users, it is possible.

[bcroe]

I joined this forum and learned quite a bit in the last few months. Initially I explored the cheapest options - non permitted DIY solution - but eventually came to my senses and went with a professionally installed system. After doing the math, I realized that the ROI on my install is 3.1 year and for most under 5 years. Ever since I have been promoting solar to anyone expressed an interest. So far 3 of my friends went solar in the last 2 months. This month, I just purchased another system for my parents home. No "referral fee" of any kind, just promoting what I believe in. Specific installer recommendation because I've met with 10 different vendors and most of the salesman were less informed about solar than me after 2 months of reading up on this forums. I had several vendors trying to sell me the fact that their system could do "individual panel monitoring" - as if that is a brand new tech and it is so unique to their install.

Electrical type here, but I hired an installer so that the job would be done very promptly, by
all local regulations, and no paperwork hangups. That worked and saved me much effort.
Anything not up to my standards could be taken care of later.

Individual panel monitoring seems to be much valued by some. Research would probably
reveal that even while the system was near new, most are no longer doing it. Before PV
monitoring came along, we in the country entertained by watching the grass grow. Bruce Roe

[inspron]

Vendor recommendations when accompanied by their solarreviews.com page are generally welcome. For example, Sunline.

I may have missed it in another thread... what did you have installed, and what did it cost?

Most professional installs do *not* achieve 5 year ROI by generally accepted accounting, but for high users, it is possible.

$2.4 / watt with 5.5kw Yingli Chinese panels (I specifically asked to be quoted with "value" panels only - its a commodity market) + SolarEdge HD SE5000H (I only considered the top quality inverters as that is the component most likely to fail). Cash prices, before incentives. Seeing some of the bids from other vendors are in the $3 range, I want to be helpful and share with new forums members value options from a reputable installer.

With the recent tariff dispute, prices have gone up and availability of *value* options dried up; so I wasn't able to get the same deal for my parents. Now it looks like only the brand name panel options are available at higher costs.

[sensij]

$2.4 / watt with 5.5kw Yingli Chinese panels (I specifically asked to be quoted with "value" panels only - its a commodity market) + SolarEdge HD SE5000H (I only considered the top quality inverters as that is the component most likely to fail). Cash prices, before incentives. Seeing some of the bids from other vendors are in the $3 range, I want to be helpful and share with new forums members value options from a reputable installer.

With the recent tariff dispute, prices have gone up and availability of *value* options dried up; so I wasn't able to get the same deal for my parents. Now it looks like only the brand name panel options are available at higher costs.

Thanks! When I was shopping in 2015, Sunline was $4 / W and up. I'm happy to add them back onto my short list of installers for my friends / neighbors / co-workers to contact.

Edit: Just for clarity, the $2.40 is pre-tax credit?

[J.P.M.]

Thanks! When I was shopping in 2015, Sunline was $4 / W and up. I'm happy to add them back onto my short list of installers for my friends / neighbors / co-workers to contact.

Edit: Just for clarity, the $2.40 is pre-tax credit?

The new (er) DR - SES tariff times making residential PV less cost effective will tend to exert a downward pressure on PV prices if PV cost effectiveness and payback times are to be maintained. It's called competition. Before the new pricing times a kWh of PV generated electricity had a value to offset a bill of ~ $0.31/kWh. The new times lower that to ~ $0.23/kWh or so. System generation will be the same. The worth of what the system will generate will drop ~ 23-24 %.

[sensij]

The new (er) DR - SES tariff times making residential PV less cost effective will tend to exert a downward pressure on PV prices if PV cost effectiveness and payback times are to be maintained. It's called competition. Before the new pricing times a kWh of PV generated electricity had a value to offset a bill of ~ $0.31/kWh. The new times lower that to ~ $0.23/kWh or so. System generation will be the same. The worth of what the system will generate will drop ~ 23-24 %.

Almost totally off-topic for this thread, but since it involves LG panels, I'll use that as an excuse to post it.

For the last year or so, as time permits, I've been working with vendors to pencil out a commercial system (includes building a carport) in the neighborhood of 300 - 600 kW, depending on how extensively we build out. Current annual electric bill under AL-TOU-CPP is around $400k, with 11-6 pm peak in summer and 5-8 pm peak in winter.

I'm modeling the 550 kW system as producing around 930 MWh of energy (south facing, 5 deg tilt). The most recent proposal was using LG400's, for $2.80 / W.

If the tariff was locked at 2016 levels, that would be worth around $110k in bill savings, ($0.118 / kWh)

GRC Phase 2 approved the change in TOU hours, as we've discussed. It also authorized a shift of more charges from volumetric pricing to demand pricing for commercial customers.

Under the old hours, but with new demand charges, that was worth about $114k in bill savings ($0.123 / kWh)
Under the new hours, and new demand charges, it will be worth about $108k in bill savings ($0.117 / kWh).

It terms of overall impact, the new hours aren't such a big deal, since the bill for May is significantly reduced by switching it from summer to winter, mostly offsetting small increases in the other months. The change in demand charges is significant though, increasing our bill 10-15% in a way that PV alone is barely able to touch.

By the time depreciation, taxes, etc are accounted for, the 10 year NPV on this (at 4% discount rate) is basically $0. Unless we can find a way to get the price dramatically lower, I think we are about to stick a fork in this one.

We haven't seen as much of it in the forum lately, but I think it is crazy for even residential customers to use financial analysis longer than 10 years to justify a system. I think demand charges will eventually be coming for CA residential customers too, another potential blow to PV cost-effectiveness that simple assumptions like 3.5% escalation in electric cost fail to capture.

[inspron]

Thanks! When I was shopping in 2015, Sunline was $4 / W and up. I'm happy to add them back onto my short list of installers for my friends / neighbors / co-workers to contact.

Edit: Just for clarity, the $2.40 is pre-tax credit?

Correct. Pre-tax credit. One of my buddy has a more complicated install - $2.70. So somewhere in between is a good guestimate of a competitive rate.

[J.P.M.]

I wish!

I joined this forum and learned quite a bit in the last few months. Initially I explored the cheapest options - non permitted DIY solution - but eventually came to my senses and went with a professionally installed system. After doing the math, I realized that the ROI on my install is 3.1 year and for most under 5 years. Ever since I have been promoting solar to anyone expressed an interest. So far 3 of my friends went solar in the last 2 months. This month, I just purchased another system for my parents home. No "referral fee" of any kind, just promoting what I believe in. Specific installer recommendation because I've met with 10 different vendors and most of the salesman were less informed about solar than me after 2 months of reading up on this forums. I had several vendors trying to sell me the fact that their system could do "individual panel monitoring" - as if that is a brand new tech and it is so unique to their install. I strongly recommend Sunline because of my personal experience - they paid a lot of attention to details and did everything the way I asked them to without nickel and diming me. Had I had a positive experience with another installer and they did a good job, I would have recommended the same.

If recommending a vendor is against forums rules, please let me know and I will stop.

Understood. It's not as common around here as it used to be, but referral whores can make ~ $500/successful referral and use places like this to play what one former mod called the screw your buddy con. Basically, there's nothing to keep the price to the mark going up by the amount of the referral fee.

You obviously do not fit that scenario. No offense intended.

As for as for forum rules, not my call/job. I'm not in policy or enforcement. For my policy only, I know a lot of the vendors in my area, both good and bad, but aside from suggesting folks stay with established and local electrical contractors, I don't recommend vendors, and I've voided and sent back unsolicited referral checks to vendors when neighbors thought they were doing me a favor and slipped the vendor my name. As the guy in the HOA responsible for review/monitoring PV installs, I'd be in a world of hurt, even if I thought referrals were ethical.

[J.P.M.]

Based on human nature, probability, common sense, and the actual response of firefighters given these scenarios, there is no difference in how homes with and without RSS will be treated. Even "plainly labeled" RSS requires more thought than anyone responding to an emergency is likely to put into it. Some versions of RSS require manual operation, some operate automatically. Some will drop only conductor voltage outside of a 10 ft perimeter around the array, some will drop conductor voltage 1 ft outside, and some will drop conductor voltage inside the array. Will a firefighter scour the labeling to try to guess which code cycle of RSS was used on the installation? Will a firefighter trust that rooftop RSS electrical equipment melting in the middle of a fire is performing as intended, or will they just assume the system is live and proceed assuming the worst case?

I'd like to know how you gleaned what seems to be the certain knowledge that homes with/without RSS will not be treated differently by firefighters.

I'd also suggest that emergencies are precisely the time when thought and care are required. Clear thinking and deliberate actions in emergencies are characteristics I thought I've observed in professionals.

I was and am under the impression that rapid shutdown requirements were mostly or entirely about the safety of first responders. I'm ignorant of most of the particulars of the issues that led to the NEC 690.12. But, I'm under the perhaps erroneous assumption that labeling and signage requirements of NEC 690.12 are something that most firefighters and other first responders have been trained to recognize. If so, and I may be (incorrectly) projecting what I'd do in the situation, but if there are 2 homes burning, both of which have PV systems, mine and the guy next door to me, and his PV is new enough to be NEC raid shutdown compliant while mine is not, I'm only suggesting that if resources, including time, are limited, and all other things being equal, which seems at least possible and IMO, likely, the RSS equipped system will have a higher probability of being seen as a more tractable situation and will see efforts first. I'm not questioning professionalism, but being of the opinion that firefighters have more common sense and self preservation instincts than most, not to mention situational awareness, it just seems like the most efficient use of resources and higher personnel safety that the RSS equipped system will see efforts first.

[max2k]

So the question I ask, is RSS worth the trouble and cost to everyone just to save the life of one First Responder?

I will continue with another question, is it worth the inconvenience to a homeowner to not get power from their PV system if the grid goes down due to a grid tie inverter shutting down to protect a POCO worker from getting electrocuted?

Simple answer for me is Yes to both questions.

My point was different- RSS at array level already provides enough protection for ungrounded array- ff can cut through the whole thing holding his chainsaw with bare hands without any danger of being electrocuted provided they turned off AC disconnect and activated RSS. This was / is even up to code in 2014 NEC.

POCO worker just needs to turn off AC disconnect to make it safe for them to work on the line side of things. I don't see how RSS could make this any safer.

[J.P.M.]

Almost totally off-topic for this thread, but since it involves LG panels, I'll use that as an excuse to post it..

No more off topic perhaps than your post of a 2015 price. I was merely offering a comment as to another possible reason why prices seem to have dropped, and may continue to do so from the $4.00/Watt you saw to what the OP found recently. If that's off topic, hang me up. Just use the same nail holes as the last person used. Saves time.

[sensij]

I'd like to know how you gleaned what seems to be the certain knowledge that homes with/without RSS will not be treated differently by firefighters.

Firefighter surveys, for one. There are a few independently published sources that pretty much agree. If you can find any evidence that a firefighter would in fact respond differently, I'd love to see it.

From this study:

Respondents expressed the desire for rapid shutdown functions to work under damaged conditions, but none expected that they would. All would treat damaged arrays as energized. (All were made aware that the standard being developed for the evaluation of rapid shutdown components will not address fire or heat damage.) Some respondents expressed the desire for comprehensive positive indication that the rapid- shutdown function operated as intended. For internal array controls, an example was light indicators in the array or some similar visual method. Most however were accepting of some higher level indication that did not provide complete assurance.

[inspron]

....but referral whores can make ~ $500/successful referral ....

Whoaaa. I have been screwed missing out on the referral fees.. hahahah

The 2nd system I purchased was actually higher cost per watt than the first.

[J.P.M.]

Firefighter surveys, for one. There are a few independently published sources that pretty much agree. If you can find any evidence that a firefighter would in fact respond differently, I'd love to see it.

From this study:

I'd respectfully suggest that the reality may be a little less dichotomous that they will or will not always respond in the same way.

It also seems, from what you reference, and no real surprise to me that the probability exists that firefighters, like electricians and others assume a circuit is always energized, and that personnel protection systems will fail and protect themselves first.

I, perhaps more than most, am about completely cynical that most things peddled and crammed down people's throats like RSS, while well intentioned, quickly turn into profit centers for leaches. But I've also got faith that human nature, particularly the preservation part of it, will be more inclined, however slight, to act when there is at least a potential path to greater personnel safety made possible by the presence of an RSS.

Maybe any first responders reading this thread would care to offer an opinion more informed than mine.