Hyundai vs LG vs Sunpower

[inspron]

Hello,

I am considering solar at my House in San Diego. I got a couple of quotes from some reputable installers for a 6.5kW system:

1. Solar Panels: Sunpower E20 327W
Inverters : Sunpower built-in micro inverters
Cost: $3.35/W
Warranty: 25 years on panels and Inverters

2. Solar Panels: Hyundai HIS-S290RG-BF
Inverters : SolarEdge - SE7600A-US
Cost: $2.9/W
Warranty: 25 yrs on panel/12 yrs on inverter


I am in the proess of getting another quote on LG panels and I am estimating they will come somewhere arounf $3/kW. My instinct is to go with Hyundai panels due to cost but I do unsderstand that they offer lower effeciency in the long runcompared to Sunpower. My questions are:

- Any feedback on Hyundai panels?
- Are sunpower panels worth the higher cost?
- Is warranty and effeciency is a real concern? Sunpwoer apparently offer warranty on service too (whereas LG and Hyundai do not)
- Do microinverters offer any real advantage over Solaredge inverters apart from aesthetics (no panel for microinverters)?

Thank you in advance!

Your overall cost seems high for San Diego. I just completed a 5.5kw system install 2 months ago. Contact me privately and I can share my numbers.

I went with Sunline. They should be able to beat those offers (unless you have a complicated install) if you give them a shot.

858-252-2280, ask for the Matt, the owner, to quote you. I'm "key" btw and they completed my install about 2 months back, not that the price would be any different.

[sensij]

Your overall costs seems high for San Diego. I just completed a 5.5kw system install 2 months ago. Contact me privately and I can share my numbers.

The forum PM system is not active. You are encouraged to share your numbers publicly, and if your installer has a solarreviews.com page, post it here.

[inspron]

The forum PM system is not active. You are encouraged to share your numbers publicly, and if your installer has a solarreviews.com page, post it here.

Something changed recently with the PM system? I recall I was able to PM before.

[sensij]

Something changed recently with the PM system? I recall I was able to PM before.

PM system has not been active in several years. There is a "visitor message" system, but it is public.

[DrLumen]

Granted that rapid shutdown may not be part of the current electrical code requirements but I went ahead with a system compatible with RS. Electrical codes are usually grandfathered but it is not unusual for the fire dept to enforce new code changes across the board. They won't grandfather some things - at least not around here.

[J.P.M.]

Your overall cost seems high for San Diego. I just completed a 5.5kw system install 2 months ago. Contact me privately and I can share my numbers.

I went with Sunline. They should be able to beat those offers (unless you have a complicated install) if you give them a shot.

858-252-2280, ask for the Matt, the owner, to quote you. I'm "key" btw and they completed my install about 2 months back, not that the price would be any different.

Any chance you're in line for a referral fee ?

[max2k]

Granted that rapid shutdown may not be part of the current electrical code requirements but I went ahead with a system compatible with RS. Electrical codes are usually grandfathered but it is not unusual for the fire dept to enforce new code changes across the board. They won't grandfather some things - at least not around here.

the issue here is - what level of RS is required? If it's 2014 NEC then shutting down wires coming off array was good enough. If it's post 2017 (I don't know exact requirement timeline) then RS is required at the module level. Looking at the latest fire rage here in OC leaves me wondering why someone would give ... about RSS of any kind, those houses were just burned to the ground without anyone climbing any roofs. I do get it- SoCal is not the whole US but sometimes I get a feeling these regulations go over board.

[DrLumen]

the issue here is - what level of RS is required? If it's 2014 NEC then shutting down wires coming off array was good enough. If it's post 2017 (I don't know exact requirement timeline) then RS is required at the module level. Looking at the latest fire rage here in OC leaves me wondering why someone would give ... about RSS of any kind, those houses were just burned to the ground without anyone climbing any roofs. I do get it- SoCal is not the whole US but sometimes I get a feeling these regulations go over board.

I agree they sometimes go overboard. Typical of any government agency, they are paranoid and try to target the absolute worst case in every situation. I figured with the regulation floating around out there that I would try to future proof my system. It didn't cost me anything extra so there was no reason or incentive to not do it.

[SunEagle]

the issue here is - what level of RS is required? If it's 2014 NEC then shutting down wires coming off array was good enough. If it's post 2017 (I don't know exact requirement timeline) then RS is required at the module level. Looking at the latest fire rage here in OC leaves me wondering why someone would give ... about RSS of any kind, those houses were just burned to the ground without anyone climbing any roofs. I do get it- SoCal is not the whole US but sometimes I get a feeling these regulations go over board.

So the question I ask, is RSS worth the trouble and cost to everyone just to save the life of one First Responder?

I will continue with another question, is it worth the inconvenience to a homeowner to not get power from their PV system if the grid goes down due to a grid tie inverter shutting down to protect a POCO worker from getting electrocuted?

Simple answer for me is Yes to both questions.

[sensij]

So the question I ask, is RSS worth the trouble and cost to everyone just to save the life of one First Responder?

Although fire fighters are very strongly in favor of RSS, it isn't really clear how the 2017 requirements offer any additional safety (80 V inside the array boundary is not touch safe).

Consider that Europe doesn't mandate any RSS at all, and there is no evidence of any first responder anywhere in the world being electrocuted by a PV system, and it is hard not to be skeptical on this.

[SunEagle]

Although fire fighters are very strongly in favor of RSS, it isn't really clear how the 2017 requirements offer any additional safety (80 V inside the array boundary is not touch safe).

Consider that Europe doesn't mandate any RSS at all, and there is no evidence of any first responder anywhere in the world being electrocuted by a PV system, and it is hard not to be skeptical on this.

I haven't been hit by a car while crossing the street and I am 64 years old. That doesn't mean I can't be hit.

I understand that the rules of RSS may seem strange and unrealistic to some. While OSHA has posted that anything below 50volts is "safe" that is a matter of what the person is wearing and what the resistance levels of a body to ground path. 80Volts may be more realistic as a safety level when it comes to exposing a fire fighter to electricity based on their PPE.

As for comparing the US electrical code with European countries, I would say so what. Some countries just don't care about safety or take a chance that the odds of someone getting hurt is very high so why put through regulations that cost more.

I am not sure what is really needed to protect the homeowner or a first responder when it comes to electricity but IMO the safer the better even it if costs me to install equipment that makes it so.

[sensij]

I haven't been hit by a car while crossing the street and I am 64 years old. That doesn't mean I can't be hit.

That is a silly analogy. Even if you haven't been hit by a car, other people have. In this case, studies have not been able to find a single person killed by PV electrocution. In fact, many more construction workers are seriously hurt or die from falls, and there is an argument that module level electronics that require separate installation increases the risk to them (more time on the roof, more opportunity to fall), and will in fact kill *more* people than if the RSS had not been required.

[SunEagle]

That is a silly analogy. Even if you haven't been hit by a car, other people have. In this case, studies have not been able to find a single person killed by PV electrocution. In fact, many more construction workers are seriously hurt or die from falls, and there is an argument that module level electronics that require separate installation increases the risk to them (more time on the roof, more opportunity to fall), and will in fact kill *more* people than if the RSS had not been required.

Maybe your are right and the need for RSS is not warranted. Still if it meant saving my home by fire fighters or letting it burn I think I know which choice I would take.

[J.P.M.]

That is a silly analogy. Even if you haven't been hit by a car, other people have. In this case, studies have not been able to find a single person killed by PV electrocution. In fact, many more construction workers are seriously hurt or die from falls, and there is an argument that module level electronics that require separate installation increases the risk to them (more time on the roof, more opportunity to fall), and will in fact kill *more* people than if the RSS had not been required.

Life is a set of probabilities and the choices made as a result of how those probabilities are evaluated and the consequences interpreted. Sometimes there are unintended consequences that were not considered.

One example that may be more than academic: Two houses are burning. Firefighters see both have PV systems on the roof. One is clearly equipped with RSS and plainly labeled. The other is not.

Based on human nature and probability, and maybe some common sense, and all other things being essentially equal, which house has the higher probability of seeing water first ?

Another example: Assume an area where RSS is not required by code and therefore houses are probably not so equipped. Assuming time is of the essence, what might the probability that (most/all) homes without RSS sustain more fire or other damage because the firefighters/first responders need more care to ensure their safety ?

Before passing judgment on something, I've found it's often best to think out of the box or get rid of the box altogether as well as thinking like the other guy.

FWIW, on the probability of occurrence and the importance of things, that is, risk vs. consequences, I sort of look at such situations kind of like of like that of a Dirac function or a Kronecker Delta function in the sense that the probability of a very bad event (major property loss or loss of life by fire/other nat. disaster, being at ground zero for a 10 mile dia. asteroid impact, etc.) is close to zero, but the consequences are very large --->>> infinite, with the (probability) * (consequence) product ~~ == 1, If either the probability and/or the cost of a bad occurrence go down, I can spend fewer resources on, in effect, betting against the probability of the bad occurrence. In this case, if RSS costs me, say, $10 on a $15K install, provided it doesn't impact system reliability/maint. too much, that's a no brainer. If it adds, say $500 to the $15K cost, and/or impacts maint., and aside from, but without diminishing the moral implications with respect to the safety concerns for one's fellow humans, that added cost vs. consequences takes on a slightly different context. Or, another example, if I live in an area that has a high probability of getting hit by a very bad hurricane every 10 years or so , it may be worth a few extra bucks to beef up an array support system (but probably still no "stronger" than the structure it's attached to as a practical/common sense measure).

All part of risk management I suppose.

[sensij]

Based on human nature and probability, and maybe some common sense, and all other things being essentially equal, which house has the higher probability of seeing water first ?

Another example: Assume an area where RSS is not required by code and therefore houses are probably not so equipped. Assuming time is of the essence, what might the probability that (most/all) homes without RSS sustain more fire or other damage because the firefighters/first responders need more care to ensure their safety ?

Based on human nature, probability, common sense, and the actual response of firefighters given these scenarios, there is no difference in how homes with and without RSS will be treated. Even "plainly labeled" RSS requires more thought than anyone responding to an emergency is likely to put into it. Some versions of RSS require manual operation, some operate automatically. Some will drop only conductor voltage outside of a 10 ft perimeter around the array, some will drop conductor voltage 1 ft outside, and some will drop conductor voltage inside the array. Will a firefighter scour the labeling to try to guess which code cycle of RSS was used on the installation? Will a firefighter trust that rooftop RSS electrical equipment melting in the middle of a fire is performing as intended, or will they just assume the system is live and proceed assuming the worst case?