Hi I'm new to solar and in the middle of having it installed, I have some questions

[Steve92004]

I've been talking with my solar company because some of what they are selling/telling me contradicts the information I find on the internet.
I'm leasing 9kw grid tie system that is supposed to provide 14,000kw per year and they are going to put the panels up tomorrow.
I'm a little upset because I was promised American panels with microinverters and they brought Q cell panels that I think are imports with power optimizers and a Solar Edge inverter.
They are putting 34 260 watt panels but my no-knowledge calculation adds up to 35 360 watt panels to get the 9kw
Also the inverter is a Solar Edge SE7600A-US.
The specs I found at their webpage say 7600 watts output and 500 volts maximum input.
Doesn't 9k of panels exceed both those numbers?
I don't know if I should demand the microinverters over the Solar Edge setup that is already wired up
The salesman says don't worry about it because they reimburse anything under the guaranteed 9kw
I kind of all went south when their electrician came and did an electric panel upgrade and blew out all my kitchen lights and my oven and they're stalling on fixing it.
The good news they through in a real nice roof that I had a quote for $17,000 dollars to do
So what do you think, just let them install tomorrow?
Thanks, this has been driving crazy
Steve

[Six4KilowWatt]

No don't let them touch it. If they blew out your lights and oven...and are stalling on fixing it...imagine the bad service you will get later.

Now for the micro/solar edge. That all depends, if you intend to add batteries later, then go with solar edge.

If your roof is small and easy to get up an down, micros are really easy to swap out, provided you have some help. It depends on the slope of the roof.

Either system sounds fine. 17k for 9kw is pretty good. But make sure you are sure they are going to do it right and provide some service.

Also get all your product serial numbers and documentation. Warranty claims...consider it on you. So make sure it's all legit products.

Sure some solar companies give exceptional service, but some will install it and never talk to you again. Just know that as a system owner, you are likely going to have to do any dirty work getting warranty service.

It all depends on the installer and what sort of relationship they have with the vendors. Good luck.

[jpoet]

I've been talking with my solar company because some of what they are selling/telling me contradicts the information I find on the internet.
I'm leasing 9kw grid tie system that is supposed to provide 14,000kw per year and they are going to put the panels up tomorrow.

You can use http://pvwatts.nrel.gov/ to get an estimate of what your system will produce in a year. It takes into account things like orientation, pitch of roof and location to give you a ball-park figure.

Depending on how long you plan on owning the house, financing is usually a better return on investment.

I'm a little upset because I was promised American panels with microinverters and they brought Q cell panels that I think are imports with power optimizers and a Solar Edge inverter.

QCell was originally a German company, but they sold out to China. There are not many American solar panel companies left, and the ones that are don't typically manufacture here. Even SunPower (an American company) panels are made in Mexico.

I personally prefer SolarEdge with optimizers, but there are some benefits to microinverters, and some people prefer them. I am guessing they quoted you Enphase microinverters, which do match up well with lower efficiency panels like the QCells. I have been told that Enphase has a pretty high failure rate, but since you are leasing that would probably not be a big deal.

They are putting 34 260 watt panels but my no-knowledge calculation adds up to 35 360 watt panels to get the 9kw

34 x 260 = 8840 which is pretty close to 9kW

Also the inverter is a Solar Edge SE7600A-US.
The specs I found at their webpage say 7600 watts output and 500 volts maximum input. Doesn't 9k of panels exceed both those numbers?

The key spec, there, is "Maximum DC Power (STC)" which is 10250W for that model. So it can handle 9kW. That inverter will output a max of 240V x 32A = 7680W AC. For your panels to produce the STC rated maximum of 8840W takes absolute perfect conditions, which pretty much does not happen, so being able to process only 7680W is likely sufficient.

I don't know if I should demand the microinverters over the Solar Edge setup that is already wired up
The salesman says don't worry about it because they reimburse anything under the guaranteed 9kw
I kind of all went south when their electrician came and did an electric panel upgrade and blew out all my kitchen lights and my oven and they're stalling on fixing it.
The good news they through in a real nice roof that I had a quote for $17,000 dollars to do
So what do you think, just let them install tomorrow?
Thanks, this has been driving crazy
Steve

Personally, I think you are okay with what they are installing.

John

[sensij]

The equipment looks fine to me. They way in which they have conducted business sounds rough. What are the terms of the lease?

[J.P.M.]

First of all, don't let them do anything until they safely and completely fix what they screwed up. That would be a big red flag to me.

After that, and only after that, and until then, if it was ne and if it's not too late, I'd have them hold off until I got educated. You are a textbook or poster case of how walking into a situation without knowing what you're doing can get you in trouble, or at least cost more money than need be spent, get something inappropriate for your situation in terms of what its capabilities are and how cost effective it might (not) be, and also limit your future options.

The goal for most homeowners is to reduce an electric bill, not strictly PV for its own sake.

Download (for free) and read "SolarPower Your Home for Dummies", or spend ~ $25 on an updated hard copy at bookstores or Amazon.

1.) Leasing is not good for most situations. If you leased from SolarCity, know they are the bottomfeeders of solar. About the only good thing about them is that they usually allow cancellation of a contract if actual site work has not started, at least in my neighborhood.

In any case, read the lease - twice - including the fine print, and do so thinking from the lessor's side. If it's like all the leases I've seen, there are enough loop holes in that lease so that the lessor will never lose money and you will be holding the bag for 20 yrs. or so, while they'll be squeezing yours all the time.

2.) Depending on your location and array orientation, most arrays will produce more in terms of kWh/yr. than the size of the system in kW (note the units :" kW" and "kWh" are not the same. The book will clear that up.
3.) Some equipment is made in the U.S., most is not. U.S. origin the way most solar peddlers use the words is a slippery term anyway. I love my country, but there is really nothing inherently superior about American made stuff (if it actually is American made - don't get your patriotism whored out by the "Made in America B.S.). American assembled is not the same as American made anyway and usually contains of a lot of foreign origin components. Sunpower, BTW, is made mostly in the Philippines w/ additional facilities in So. Africa. There may be some new facilities in Mexico I don't know about yet.
4.) As others suggest, and I'd add only after reading the book, run PVWatts for your location and orientation after you read the help/info screen a couple of times. Get your own estimates of performance after you understand how you pay for electricity, tariff options and how much electricity you use, by month. Only then can you begin to make more informed and thus better choices.
5.) There's probably nothing wrong with the equipment they quoted in terms of quality, but I bet once the salesperson saw your unfamiliarity with things solar, it got oversized and overpriced.

Read the book, run PVWatts

You have a lot to learn and a ways to go before you will be in a position to make intelligent choices with respect to cost effective and fit for purpose ways to offset your electric bill. Take your time. This is not a race. The choice is yours. At this time, you are one of the solar ignorant sheeple, waiting to be shorn.

Welcome to the neighborhood and the forum of few(er) illusions,

Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

[Steve92004]

Thanks guys
The lease is $230 a month through Sunrun and guarantees 9kw a month with a $0.21 per kw reimbursement for underproduction.
I wonder if Sunrun knows the solar company is installing a system that can't keep up with guaranteed volume and they will be reimbursing me every month.
I live in the So Cal desert and our San Diego electric rates are outrageous. We have a tiny baseline of $0.20 per kw and jumps to $0.40 immediately after you surpass the alloted baseline.
My goal is to produce enough with solar to keep me at the baseline rate.
So $0. 20 per kw for the solar and the baseline and I'll be a happy customer.
I mentioned I got a free $17,000 roof out of the deal and that makes me feel cheap about complaining.

[sensij]

"9 kW per month" is a meaningless statement in this context. Energy production is measured in kWh.

Is there an escalator clause in the lease?

I live in San Diego, and am very familiar with the rate plans here.

[Steve92004]

"9 kW per month" is a meaningless statement in this context. Energy production is measured in kWh.

Is there an escalator clause in the lease?

I live in San Diego, and am very familiar with the rate plans here.

Nope, no escalator
I'm in Borrego Springs and we don't have natural gas out here. They need to increase the baseline allotment for us
You might have seen me on KUSI on the Turco Files on an episode investigating the SDGE rates

[J.P.M.]

Nope, no escalator
I'm in Borrego Springs and we don't have natural gas out here. They need to increase the baseline allotment for us
You might have seen me on KUSI on the Turco Files on an episode investigating the SDGE rates

I own some land in Borrego Springs about 3 miles north of Christmas circle. Dwelling was designed and a PV system correctly sized, but project never finished.

If you are on the "DR" tiered rates, that will probably change at some point over to T.O.U. rates, probably to "DR-SES" if you get a PV system. Just so you know.

FWIW, with a reasonably oriented system, say mostly south facing and ~ 20 deg. off horizontal tilt, you can expect ~ 1,750 kWh/yr. of production for every STC Watt of array you install.

If you stay on tiered rates (??): Your current tier one allotment is about 9,500 kWh/yr. (desert , all electric).

So, if your goal is to stay within the ~ $0.20/kWh (current) rate tier, subtract 9,500 kWh from your annual use, divide the remainder by ~ 1,750 or so, and that's what your approximate system size ought to be.

Example: If your annual use is, say, 25,000 kWh (??) --->>> (25,000 kWh/yr. - 9,500 kWh/yr.)/(1,750kWh/yr. per installed STC kW) ~ = 8.86 kW, or ~ 8.8 to ~ 9.0 STC. STC. kW.

Read the book, then run PVWatts. When you run PVWatts, use the Thermal CA airport data. That data is probably a bit closer to the Borrego Springs location in terms of climate than the Imperial CA data. Been there, done that.

One more piece of anecdotal information. I review all the solar contracts for my HOA, including contract review. One piece of info I track is the cost per month per STC Watt to lease a PV system. That average in my HOA (zip 92026) is ~ $0.024132 per month per installed STC Watt (min. = $0.01961, max., $0.03142), but I'm mostly ignorant of what leases are going for in Borrego Springs. Take that info FWIW.

So, at 8.84 kW, which will probably generate something like 15,500 kWh/yr. or so in Borrego Springs (8.84 STC kW * 1,750 kWh/yr. per STC kW), around here (92026) such a system could be leased for something like : (8,840 * .024132) ~ $210 - $215 per month. I'm ignorant of what leases go for in Borrego Springs.

At 8.84 kW system size, Sun run (which mostly does PPA's by the way - you sure it's a lease ?) better be warrantying more than 9,000 kWh/yr. You sound like you might be confused between system size and annual system output.

Also, and as a real back of the envelope SWAG, if an 8.84 kW system does indeed keep you out of what are currently the upper tiers, that would put your annual usage at ~ 15,500+9,500 = 25,000 kWh/yr., and leave you with about a $2K/yr. residual electric bill, maybe a bit more.

Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

[aleenoor]

We have a tiny baseline of $0.20 per kw and jumps to $0.40 immediately after you surpass the alloted baseline.
My goal is to produce enough with solar to keep me at the baseline rate.
.

WOW !!! your electrons are EXPENSIVE over there. Here in FL, we pay $0.09 for fist 1000 kWh and $0.12 for more than 1000kWh. With that cost of electricity, everyone should go Solar fast !!!

Also, I second what everyone else has said. Don't let them touch anything else until they remedy the damage to you kitchen / appliances. Otherwise Q-Cell and Solar Edge are pretty decent choices.

Also, look at your lease contract and see how much production are they guaranteeing ? 9kW is the size of the system. You can go to PVWatts and see how many kWh(s) a system this size will produce annually for your location, and panel orientation.

[sensij]

The tiered plans will continue to be available to new NEM-ST (successor tariff) customers for 120 days after the new GRC phase 2 rates take effect; that countdown is likely to start soon. From the tariff:

Residential eligible customer-generators and qualified customers may choose to be served under an applicable optional Time-of-Use ("TOU") rate. Eligible customer-generators who complete their interconnection application for service under this schedule within a period of 120 days after SDG&E's 2016 General Rate Case Phase 2 ("GRC P2") proceeding (A.15-04-012) TOU rates become effective shall be permitted to 1) take service under the new TOU rates or 2) take service under existing TOU rates or tiered rates in effect at the time their interconnection application was completed for a period of time up to five years from the date they take service.

Anyone installing solar now would do well to start following the development of TOU plans, but I'm not sure that running numbers against today's plans will be very valuable 5 years from now when the decision really needs to be made, except to the extent that it may allow a *smaller* system to be installed and still achieve the same bill reduction (for the next 5 years).

[J.P.M.]

The tiered plans will continue to be available to new NEM-ST (successor tariff) customers for 120 days after the new GRC phase 2 rates take effect; that countdown is likely to start soon. From the tariff:



Anyone installing solar now would do well to start following the development of TOU plans, but I'm not sure that running numbers against today's plans will be very valuable 5 years from now when the decision really needs to be made, except to the extent that it may allow a *smaller* system to be installed and still achieve the same bill reduction (for the next 5 years).

Good info and part of the education process needed to help make informed decisions.

Unfortunately or not, there's probably no assured method to make what's a locked in, sure fire right decision about the future, but being informed about how the future of rates may go may serve to at least make surprises a bit less monumental or onerous.

About the only things homeowners can do with respect to how big their electric bill is:

1.) Reduce use as much as lifestyle and choice permits. Use less, pay less.
2.) Be very aware and knowledgeable of rates, tariffs and ways to modify use patterns to game the system as much as possible, keeping in mind that rates/tariffs will change in response to changing use patterns and as politics allow to maximize return for the POCO stockholders. Nothing personal. Just business.

[Steve92004]

Thanks!
The lease agreement by Sunrun goes as follows:
Cost per kWh: $0.205
Annual Percentage Increase: 0.00%
System Size: 9.01 kW DC
Year One Production: 14,038 kWh
Lifetime Productions: 267,816 kWh

I still think they owe me one more panel to hit 901 kW DC
You guys lost me on the TOU stuff

PVWatts says: 18,961 kWh per Year
I'm going to read that book

I was using 25,000 Kw a year and we're trying to cutback
We installed energy efficient appliances, reinsulated and purchased a new evaporative cooler which is working out well
We would have already been into two months of air conditioning but have yet to turn it on due to the new cooler
we'll see how it does in this weekend's 120 degree heatwave
According to SDGE I use 80% more electricity on Sundays than any other day so we figured it's the electric dryer, not sure what I can do anout that

[jpoet]

Thanks!
The lease agreement by Sunrun goes as follows:
Cost per kWh: $0.205

20 cents per kWh? Wow, the power company where you live must be very expensive for that to be a good deal. I guess I should feel lucky I live in Albuquerque.

Annual Percentage Increase: 0.00%
System Size: 901 kW DC
Year One Production: 14,038 kWh
Lifetime Productions: 267,816 kWh

I still think they owe me one more panel to hit 901 kW DC

I assume you mean 9.1kW. 9100 / 260 = 35, so you are correct.

[Steve92004]

20 cents per kWh? Wow, the power company where you live must be very expensive for that to be a good deal. I guess I should feel lucky I live in Albuquerque.


I assume you mean 9.1kW. 9100 / 260 = 35, so you are correct.

Thanks, yeah I left out a decimal point
20 cents is our base tier and it jumps to 40 cents after a preset amount of usage... 75% of my usage is at 40 cents so yeah it's a good deal to me