My Solaredge system dead. How to figure if it's an optimizer or inverter that's bad?

[sensij]

Here is a (blurry) picture of the extra star washer I had from my ongoing installation. I can get measurements and a better picture of needed.
star washer.jpg



I'm surprised you can tell whether the washers are installed or not... on my system, the optimizers are far enough under the panels that detecting whether there is a washer between the optimizer and rail is a challenge.

Even if the washers were skipped, I'm not sure i'd make an installer uninstall the array just to go back and add them. The ground washers don't do anything for the function of the optimizer or inverter, they are just there for safety so that if there is a fault in the optimizer that causes a DC line to short to ground, there is a path back to the source to trip the overcurrent device. Having the exposed metal surfaces on the optimizer (and everywhere else on the array) at ground potential reduces the risk of shock in that fault condition, as well. If the star washer is left out, there probably is still enough contact between the optimizer and rail to "ground" it, but it may just not be good enough contact in all environments to meet UL, driving the need for the washer.

[sensij]

When the inevitable happens and the install company comes out to swap out a new inverter and/or optimizer(s) I want to have 22 star washers to hand to them and demand they install. Does anyone know whether any old star washer with teeth that I can pick up at HD or Lowes will do? Is there anything special to these piercing star washers that come with SolarEdge power optimizers?

I think I still have one from my current install, I'll take a picture. Bigger teeth than I'm used to buying at Home Depot, but I haven't looked for this in particular.

FWIW, putting on the washers is a pain. If it is Iron ridge rail, or something like it, the mounting T-bolts are pre-threaded with the nut, and if the star washer isn't used, they can drop right in and be tightened. Adding the star washer means unthreading the nut past some thread locker, then rethreading the nut. Doubles the time to mount the optimizer... Not much in the grand scheme, but in the moment, I can understand why they would be tempting to skip.

[sensij]

I just looked more closely at the pictures in the first post. I hope the OP's inverter is displaying temperature in deg F!

[kny]

So... maybe the installer did something different with your install. They setup your inverter to limit the output. This way they could use a 30 amp circuit breaker and smaller wire to stay under 24 amps. I have seen an install like this and have heard of another. This might be why you clip at 5904 watts (24 amps x 246 volts). Your install might not be dangerous and illegal as others posted, just not optimal.

The installer seems to specialize in installs with Canadian Solar panels and Enphase microinverters. So, I'm guessing Sunpower 327 with SolarEdge power optimizers and string inverter was out of their wheelhouse despite having no hesitation in designing and installing this system when I proposed it. Not that this excuses it, but the install crew probably just went up there and did what they do day in and day out, and I'm guessing Enphase micro-inverters don't need grounding or don't have special washers to ground to the rails. How the electrician and the inspector let it by, though, I do not know.

The 10 AWG wire and 30amp breaker has me irritated, but as sensij noted, safe and code compliant are not always synonymous. While I wish I had 8 AWG and a 40amp breaker, the system as is will never put out more than 25 amps, which over 60' the 10AWG wire can handle. I'm not losing sleep over this wiring buried in my walls. The poor connection at the breaker was surely a bigger issue than the 10 AWG wire. I, however, now have now option to add more panels and upgrade to a 7600 inverter, which I was considering. That's out.

The lack of grounding of the optimizers, on the other hand, has me legitimately pissed off. There is no excuse for it. Pages 12/13 of the PO install guide make very clear the two means of grounding the POs, and neither were done. That is unacceptable. This did not save the install company time or money. The star washers come with the POs; they simply didn't know what they were for and didn't use them and threw them away.

When the inevitable happens and the install company comes out to swap out a new inverter and/or optimizer(s) I want to have 22 star washers to hand to them and demand they install. Does anyone know whether any old star washer with teeth that I can pick up at HD or Lowes will do? Is there anything special to these piercing star washers that come with SolarEdge power optimizers?

[ButchDeal]

I am not disagreeing with you sensij. Maybe someone with excellent knowledge of the code might have found a loophole. Or maybe they are exploiting less then knowledgeable inspectors and homeowners and figure it is safe. Aren't all inverters software limited? Otherwise how can an inverter rated for 16 amps can be connected to a 20 amp breaker with 5000 watts DC of panels? An SE-6000 can be programmed to limit itself to 24 amps AC.

By software limited, I mean there isn't a hardware limit that keeps an inverter from exceeding the rated amps. There isn't anything inside like a 16 amp circuit breaker inside an inverter that is rated for that output.

It only matters what the inverter is rated for in the plack on he side of it. Wether it is accomplished with software or hardware means nothing.
that this install passed inspection only shows that there are poor inspectors around.

Ghe amount of dc connected to the inverter is irrelivent. In fact it would be the same if it had zero D.C. Connected to it.

[SunEagle]

I am not disagreeing with you sensij. Maybe someone with excellent knowledge of the code might have found a loophole. Or maybe they are exploiting less then knowledgeable inspectors and homeowners and figure it is safe. Aren't all inverters software limited? Otherwise how can an inverter rated for 16 amps can be connected to a 20 amp breaker with 5000 watts DC of panels? An SE-6000 can be programmed to limit itself to 24 amps AC.

By software limited, I mean there isn't a hardware limit that keeps an inverter from exceeding the rated amps. There isn't anything inside like a 16 amp circuit breaker inside an inverter that is rated for that output.

The maximum amp output of an inverter is based on it's wattage and voltage rating which determines the circuit breaker size based on the NEC and AHJ requirements.

Sure you can limit the amount of current with an another smaller over current device on the output but that does not allow you to reduce the size of the tie in breaker at the panel.

[sensij]

By software limited, I mean there isn't a hardware limit that keeps an inverter from exceeding the rated amps. There isn't anything inside like a 16 amp circuit breaker inside an inverter that is rated for that output.

Yeah, distinguishing "software" from "firmware" means different things to different people. I didn't mean to suggest that there was a hardware limit, just that code doesn't allow overcurrent protection and wire size to be selected based on the user-settable output limit. Whether or not any particular AHJ looks close enough at the plans to catch it, or takes issue with what actually gets installed if it doesn't match the plans, is where the real world intrudes on my safe design space.

[FFE]

I am not disagreeing with you sensij. Maybe someone with excellent knowledge of the code might have found a loophole. Or maybe they are exploiting less then knowledgeable inspectors and homeowners and figure it is safe. Aren't all inverters software limited? Otherwise how can an inverter rated for 16 amps can be connected to a 20 amp breaker with 5000 watts DC of panels? An SE-6000 can be programmed to limit itself to 24 amps AC.

By software limited, I mean there isn't a hardware limit that keeps an inverter from exceeding the rated amps. There isn't anything inside like a 16 amp circuit breaker inside an inverter that is rated for that output.

[sensij]

So... maybe the installer did something different with your install. They setup your inverter to limit the output. This way they could use a 30 amp circuit breaker and smaller wire to stay under 24 amps. I have seen an install like this and have heard of another. This might be why you clip at 5904 watts (24 amps x 246 volts). Your install might not be dangerous and illegal as others posted, just not optimal.

You don't get to adjust the wiring based on a software limit. It doesn't matter whether you put 3 kW or 8 kW of panels on the 6000 W inverter. Code cares about what the inverter is rated to continuously produce, and the wiring must be compliant with that to be "legal".

I agree that "code compliant" and "safe" are not always synonymous. However, when coupled with performance problems and other apparent installation shortcuts, it is hard to give the installer the benefit of the doubt.

[FFE]

So... maybe the installer did something different with your install. They setup your inverter to limit the output. This way they could use a 30 amp circuit breaker and smaller wire to stay under 24 amps. I have seen an install like this and have heard of another. This might be why you clip at 5904 watts (24 amps x 246 volts). Your install might not be dangerous and illegal as others posted, just not optimal.

[sensij]

When I rebooted system this morning all 22 optimizers came up as P_OK, as opposed to before reboot when one was non-reporting. If all 22 optimizers are P_OK is there any purpose to re-pairing? I have direct access to the inverter; that's not a problem, and I can surely learn how to re-pair if instructions are in an install guide. But if all 22 are on P_OK is there any purpose to it?

I have not looked at temperature data. It does not seem something you can chart on in the monitoring portal. I was told these things are intended to be outside in the elements and it would not be a problem. It is mounted on east wall, so is out of direct sun by early afternoon.

Re-pairing won't hurt, but as long as all optimizers continue to report in happily, it might not be necessary. The high DC voltage - no AC power thing could possibly be related though, so it would still be on the list of things to try if re-seating the connections doesn't get you all the way there.

Temperature data is accessible via the API, if you don't want to join and auto-upload it via PVOutput. The request you put into your browser is this, preceeded by https://

monitoringapi.solaredge.com/equipment/<site ID>/<inverter serial number>data?api_key=<your API key>&startTime=2015-05-5 11:00:00&endTime=2015-05-05 13:00:00

If your installer hasn't given you an API key, you can request one (they are free). The inverter is labeled with the serial number if you can't get it any other way, and the site ID is on your monitoring portal. You can look at a week's worth of data at once this way.

[ButchDeal]

The meter is inside, adjacent to breaker box. Inverter inside was not practical due to space considerations. Historic district so inverter and disconnect were placed on roof; nothing can be visible from street. AC disconnects for air conditioner compressors are on roof as well. This is why there is a 60' run from inverter to breaker box. We're getting diverted here.

AC disconnects for air conditioner is different from Solar.
Firefighters need to turn off solar immediately before doing anything on the building.
You have an inverter with rapid shutdown but they would have to climb on the roof and get to it to use it.


There should be labels indicating the location of all the solar equipment as well at ground level.

to answer your other question if all the optimizers are reporting then no there is no need to re-pair. I would suspect that the installer or solaredge did this remotely if it is now working.
you still have the wiring issues and inverter functioning issues to deal with. I would doubt that the installer mentioned the wiring to solaredge.

[kny]

Why is the AC disconnect and inverter on the roof? The AC disconnect should be next to the meter or at an accessable ground location.
The inverter would be better suited next to or near to the AC disconnect at ground level.

SolarEdge is responding to whatever issue the installer put in.

The meter is inside, adjacent to breaker box. Inverter inside was not practical due to space considerations. Historic district so inverter and disconnect were placed on roof; nothing can be visible from street. AC disconnects for air conditioner compressors are on roof as well. This is why there is a 60' run from inverter to breaker box. We're getting diverted here.

[kny]

Yes, the disconnect is another opportunity for a bad termination.

With a rooftop mounted inverter (which is really unconventional), have you looked at any of the temperature data to see if it is overheating? That is another reason the system could be mis-behaving.

Re-pairing the optimizers is something you can do yourself without opening anything up, but you do need direct access to the inverter.

When I rebooted system this morning all 22 optimizers came up as P_OK, as opposed to before reboot when one was non-reporting. If all 22 optimizers are P_OK is there any purpose to re-pairing? I have direct access to the inverter; that's not a problem, and I can surely learn how to re-pair if instructions are in an install guide. But if all 22 are on P_OK is there any purpose to it?

I have not looked at temperature data. It does not seem something you can chart on in the monitoring portal. I was told these things are intended to be outside in the elements and it would not be a problem. It is mounted on east wall, so is out of direct sun by early afternoon.

[ButchDeal]

The AC Disconnect is on the roof. Right next to the inverter. If there was a bad connection likely it was the one in the breaker box that I got. But, theoretically it could be the AC disconnect, too, right? Or also the spring-loaded AC out connectors in the inverter, though unlikely.

Either way, the installer has created a ticket with SolarEdge, who says it is a monitoring issue only (ha!). So we will see how long all this takes to resolve, because it sure as heck is not just a monitoring issue; that I can prove with certainty. But, I've got to step back and let the installer and SolarEdge work through it their own way on their time.

Why is the AC disconnect and inverter on the roof? The AC disconnect should be next to the meter or at an accessable ground location.
The inverter would be better suited next to or near to the AC disconnect at ground level.

SolarEdge is responding to whatever issue the installer put in.