Is grid tie solar worth it with states ending net metering?

[bcroe]

I've also lived on a lot less than 5,000kWh/yr. in crappy, cold climates. I'd bet 5,000 kWh/yr. is
possible, although not as common as it once might have been.

In 2012 (last year Before Solar) I used 4963 KWH, the result of a very diligent reduction of waste (phantom loads) and more
than one comment that I never ran the air conditioning (fans work).

I did keep the electric stove which now fits well into the PV solar plan. The new heat pump runs all the time. Bruce Roe

[reader2580]

That's a good reason not to use optimizers.

Are you in a location where shading is a big problem? If not just go with string inverters.

The first solar company I talked to highly recommends optimizers. It could be that they want to sell me $800 more in product, I do not have shading issues from structures or trees, but I have to deal with snow,

[SunEagle]

The first solar company I talked to highly recommends optimizers. It could be that they want to sell me $800 more in product, I do not have shading issues from structures or trees, but I have to deal with snow,

Optimizers will probably not help much if you get even 1" of snow. It doesn't take much "shade" or blockage to shut down the pv output.

Just consider all options and pricing before you buy and don't be fooled by sales people that try to convince you their product is the BEST and you NEED it.

[jflorey2]

The first solar company I talked to highly recommends optimizers. It could be that they want to sell me $800 more in product, I do not have shading issues from structures or trees, but I have to deal with snow,

Optimizers (and microinverters) are great when you have partial shading issues. If not, then I'd avoid the extra expense (and potential for failure in a difficult to access location) and just use a string inverter.

[DanS26]

Since you are DIY, keep getting quotes.....they don't cost you anything except the time invested, the more the better. Panels and inverters you can source on line.....just be diligent and get good pricing on quality products. I personally like stuff made or assembled in North America. Also source as many balance of project parts as possible locally...ask and get the contractors discount. You are your own contractor and with a project this size they should not argue with you. Go to your local electrical/plumbing supply house, you may be surprised how helpful they can be.

No shading....then design with two small string inverters. Basically you get the ability to monitor your production and array with out the high cost of micros or optimizers. Do not fall for the panel monitoring sales BS. Two string inverters will give you that capability...you just don't know which panel...but it is easy to track down.

If you do your homework and get good pricing on parts, together with 30% tax credit, you should be able to build the system for $.03 to $.04 per kWh cost of production. Now you have flexibility.

Finally, and this is important, you have to know the NEC codes and regulations and your local regulations (ie AHJ) to do the project right the first time. Do overs and corrections cost money, sometimes big money. Do not overlook these requirements.

Good luck.

[reader2580]

I am probably going to piecemeal my system from the lowest cost for each piece of the system. I talked with a local supply house, and they will sell everything EXCEPT solar stuff to homeowners. They have a whole team of people that only sell solar stuff. My employer has an account there and I am going to see if they could order on my behalf. I think it would be better to buy rails through someone local so I don't have to pay $300 for truck freight.

I've been through a lot of the NEC codes and so on, but I am still reading. This reminds me that the electrical inspector never answered my two questions I asked,

[DanS26]

Net metering is under siege because as a long term program it is not feasible. You cannot expect your neighbor to subsidize your solar system.

The residential solar market has to become a low cost producer....and the utility industry has to allow fair competition. That means a "fair" cost (or reimbursement) of wholesale electricity no matter where it is produced.

So to answer the OP's question.... "Is grid tie solar worth it with states ending net metering?"

Yes it is......but only if you become a low cost producer and the utilities are required to reimburse at a fair wholesale cost.

[reader2580]

N
Yes it is......but only if you become a low cost producer and the utilities are required to reimburse at a fair wholesale cost.

Solar most likely will end up being being a net cost to me even over 25 years without net metering. I understand why net metering isn't considered fair, but why would anyone install residential solar at all if the payback is many decades?

I average 11 KWH of electricity consumption during the winter months. I might be able to produce 11 KWH with my solar array, but only during daylight hours. Nobody is home during daylight hours in the winter so I might use 3 KWH during that time so I sell 8 KWH to the power company at say 6 cents per KWH. I then buy 8 KWH of power at around 12 cents per KWH during the evening and overnight. Instead of zero costs for that power now it costs me 48 cents.

Over an entire year without net metering I might save $200 on my electric bill with solar. A $5,000 system (after 30% credit) means it takes 25 years minimum before any payback. I would probably need at least $1000 in new inverters at some point so that pushes it out to 30 years minimum. Only an environmentalist installs something that has a minimum 30 year payback.

Yes, I could install batteries to avoid selling at wholesale rates, but enough AGM batteries would cost me a fortune and then I have to spend that fortune every ten years (or less) all over again. I would need to build a shed to hold all the batteries on top of all the other costs. Lithium batteries are available too, but they are even more expensive unless costs have come down and I am not aware of it. My understanding is they would need to be in a heated building to work in the winter.

[reader2580]

I guess the ultimate question is, has anybody installed a PV solar system without net metering and actually come up with a payback that is less than 25 to 30 years? (Other than Alaska or Hawaii with their extremely high electric rates.)

[foo1bar]

I guess the ultimate question is, has anybody installed a PV solar system without net metering and actually come up with a payback that is less than 25 to 30 years? (Other than Alaska or Hawaii with their extremely high electric rates.)

I believe without net metering I would have a ~10 year payback.
Without net metering and without local rebates and without tax benefits I think it'd be 25-30.
I believe UK doesn't have net metering (and has worse sun than a lot of places) and I think there's still systems being installed there with reasonable payback periods.

[J.P.M.]

I guess the ultimate question is, has anybody installed a PV solar system without net metering and actually come up with a payback that is less than 25 to 30 years? (Other than Alaska or Hawaii with their extremely high electric rates.)

Without answering for him, I believe DanS26 has produced some numbers like that or better. Not sure I totally agree with all of the logic, but that matters nothing as it's not my $$/system, and it seems to have come in at a sharp price.

Dan ?

[reader2580]

I'll rephrase: Has anyone installed a PV solar system without net metering and without rebates/incentives (other than 30% tax credit) and come up with a payback that is less than 25 to 30 years?

I get no incentives for solar (besides federal 30%). If I lived 10 miles further south I could get 21 cents per KW produced for 10 years plus sell power to the utility company plus get the 30% federal tax credit. It sucks that I get no solar incentives plus I pay 40% more for my electricity on top of it.

[DanS26]

I'll rephrase: Has anyone installed a PV solar system without net metering and without rebates/incentives (other than 30% tax credit) and come up with a payback that is less than 25 to 30 years?...........

Yes I have. But my POCO allowed me to produce at greater than my annual usage. So economies of scale kick in. I produce at $.03 per kWh and my POCO reimburses me at $.065 per kWh. That allows me to have a 7.5 year payback on a 17.28 kW system.

If net metering is dissolved then residential wholesale producers should be allowed to produce at above personal consumption amounts. Within reason and within their service capabilities. Let the market and competition work out the details.

[tyab]

" I realize I am in a situation where solar is not ideal. The only reason I am even considering it this year is because I think Congress will eliminate the tax credit after 2017. "

The federal solar tax credit is authorized through 2022, but does start to drop off after 2019.

https://energy.gov/savings/residential-renewable-energy-tax-credit
https://www.energystar.gov/about/federal_tax_credits

Given that this passed overwhelming with bipartisan support - in my opinion - there is a very low probability that the new congress will go back and kill it. Fortunately solar has historically received strong bipartisan support at the federal level.

[reader2580]

" I realize I am in a situation where solar is not ideal. The only reason I am even considering it this year is because I think Congress will eliminate the tax credit after 2017. "

The federal solar tax credit is authorized through 2022, but does start to drop off after 2019.

https://energy.gov/savings/residential-renewable-energy-tax-credit
https://www.energystar.gov/about/federal_tax_credits

Given that this passed overwhelming with bipartisan support - in my opinion - there is a very low probability that the new congress will go back and kill it. Fortunately solar has historically received strong bipartisan support at the federal level.

The Republicans have already published a huge list of regulations and other things they want to repeal. There are several pages of stuff related to renewable and green energy that they hope to repeal. There are rumors that anyone at the Energy department who works on green or renewable energy will be let go or reassigned. I guess we won't know for a while what is going to happen.